Commons:Village pump/Archive/2024/06

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Proceeding with rename. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 14:24, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ok, this is getting a bit ridiculous, but this rename request has been at some sort of limbo state for 5 months so I'm bringing it here so it can gain more attention. Should we rename the file to File:Air Force Ensign of India.svg? I quote Fry1989's reasoning:

"This flag is currently in use, so the year of introduction should not be included in the file name. This is as per Commons' long-standing practice of naming flag images "Flag of XXX.svg" without a year of introduction unless the flag has been retired from use. It also can be confused for implying this flag was only used in 2023, as per the naming styles for flags such as File:Flag of Burundi (1966).svg, File:Flag of Zimbabwe Rhodesia (1979).svg, and File:Flag of Jamaica (1962).svg, which were only used for 1 year or less and for that reason include both their year of introduction and year of retirement as a single year."

Pinging previously involved editors: @Fry1989, KylieTastic, Paine Ellsworth, and Billinghurst. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 13:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

 Support as proposer. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 13:57, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 Support Fry's reasoning is sound, I'm surprised at the amount of pushback he's getting. ReneeWrites (talk) 14:03, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
Leaning toward  support pending editor billinghurst's present rationale to see if it has changed since January? P. I. Ellsworthed. put'r there 14:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)
 Support as long as a redirect is left for all the current uses of the dated version. KylieTastic (talk) 16:30, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Stuck in category redirects

At Special:Permalink/880570764 a list of category redirects with files (or subcategories) that aren't moved.

This is generally due to categories being added by templates. I identified some at User_talk:RussBot/category_redirect_log#Template_populating_category_redirects and fixed a few occurrences. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:04, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Some of these either should probably have CfDs or the redirect is actually the correct category. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:22, 1 June 2024 (UTC)
Normally, there shouldn't be any category on that list. If one is there it means RussBot tried to move the files or subcategories, but couldn't. If the category is empty now, it means it has been fixed.
Maybe there is a way to adapt w:Template:Resolve category redirect so redirecting categories aren't picked up by templates. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:03, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Commons Gazette 2024-06

Volunteer staff changes

In May 2024, 1 sysop was removed. Currently, there are 184 sysops.

Other news


Edited by RZuo (talk).


Commons Gazette is a monthly newsletter of the latest important news about Wikimedia Commons, edited by volunteers. You can also help with editing!

--RZuo (talk) 13:46, 1 June 2024 (UTC)

Aligning images with strong sources

We have several pictures from WWII concerning Croatian area that are described wrongly or incorrectly given that this is what the secondary sources who comment or talk about these pictures say. The source that took picture from a Yugoslav archive is United States Holocaust Memorial Museum. It is also a factual source, however, it has a description of the image that is not in accordance with modern sources, which mark such an interpretation(regardless from whom) and as propaganda.

What to do in this case, and if nothing can be changed, can the same picture be posted but with an explanation ie description based on modern high-quality sources of historians?

Images are: Corpses in the Sava river, Sisak 1945.[1], Ustaše militia execute prisoners near the Jasenovac concentration camp[2], Glina church massacre [3] --Mikola22 (talk) 06:28, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Maybe this helps: File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-09549-0004, Leipzig, Universität, Archiv.jpg reproduces the original description with a caption/disclaimer. The actual wiki-description goes in a different field. Enhancing999 (talk) 10:59, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't think we can write caption/disclaimer below "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" because this source is not an archive. It can be said that it is a secondary source. But the problem is that they took these photos from the Yugoslav Archive or sources which interpreted these photos in their own way. In modern sources of historians this method is labeled and as propaganda and with the explanation that the photographs show some other events and not the events that are presented through Yugoslav historiography. Let's say for the majority of Croats killed in Sisak, these photos are listed in the archive as pictures for Jasenovac with a note that this is how people were killed similar or the same and in the concentration camp Jasenovac, so these pictures can also be used in topics about Jasenovac, etc. Today, in fact photos of the majority of Croats killed in Sisak are placed in the context of the killing of Serbs, Jews, the Jasenovac Camp, etc. Mikola22 (talk) 14:24, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
For starters, there is {{Fact disputed}}. If (as appears to be the case here) the matter is genuinely controversial, that's a good choice: you are not simply making a correction, you are noting that two presumably scholarly sources disagree.
File:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-09549-0004, Leipzig, Universität, Archiv.jpg may not be the best example, because it just has a generic warning. File:1st Ave. S. looking north from S. Washington St., ca. 1876 - DPLA - 571301e7640245dfce8110b0e1b41c2c.jpg might be a better example. Note: "original description" distinct from (corrected) "title"; also, in the "description" field, note the horizontal bar separating what the original source said from Commons' own original content.
Also, when contradicting a presumably respectable scholarly source, it is a good idea to report the contradiction back to them. They are likely to incorporate it into their archives as well (which I see has now happened with that example I gave). - Jmabel ! talk 19:02, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Category inclusion bug

Category:1801 baptismal fonts in Bavaria correctly shows Category:1801 baptismal fonts in Germany as a parent cat, but the latter does not show the former as a child cat. - Jmabel ! talk 22:54, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

Categories included due to templates frequently have issues with updating due to cache issues or the MediaWiki software updating its index (which I believe is done weekly). So while three days is a long time for it to not display, it’s not entirely unreasonable. Have you tried purging both cats and the template (I cannot on the machine I’m using presently)? —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
I had purged both cats. I didn't think to try purging the template; now I've done so, and it still didn't resolve this. - Jmabel ! talk 00:29, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Null edit fixed the problem. MKFI (talk) 06:10, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

27.png still exists

So I've been making a spreadsheet of all the numerical PNG files on here from 01.png to 99.png. While browsing I found that 27.png is somehow still an existing file? Here's the link: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:27.png

I don't know what it is so I can't move it to a better file name. Hopefully someone knows what this is. 0x16w (talk) 09:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

29.png also still exists apparently. 0x16w (talk) 10:03, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Checked all the other numbers up to 99.png, these are the only two remaining ones. 0x16w (talk) 10:17, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Limited to the edits

IP address: 2400:2412:2820:3F00:98C9:C7C6:438:4912 This limited to 128 edits on IP address to expiry 1 week 2400:2412:2820:3F00:98C9:C7C6:438:4912 11:08, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

See Commons:Administrators' noticeboard/Vandalism#Yusaya 94038917, this seems to be an IP and user trying to hit some kind of autoconfirmed edit count, probably a misunderstood one. Belbury (talk) 11:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Deletion request for presumed orphaned category

I recently made this Category:Hungern bis ihr ehrlich seid 2024, then realized that that name is confusing, formed something more suitable, and duly added a redirect. That confusing name is still being shown as an auto‑completion option when filling in other more sensible categories, which could lead to wrong categorizations and be detrimental. I believe that that confusing category name is orphaned in any case.

My request is that Category:Hungern bis ihr ehrlich seid 2024 be deleted if at all possible. My apologies for adding to the admin workload, sorry for that. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 16:46, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll delete it, but for the future please see the directions at Template:How to delete empty categories. - Jmabel ! talk 23:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! I looked at the documentation for Template:How to delete empty categories and it is not clear (to me at least) where to place this template. I guess that the target category is the correct location? Perhaps that information could be confirmed and added to the usage notes for that template? I have also already added a topic to the template discussion page to record my suggestion there. In addition, the template name seems confusing: is this template invoking a deletion process or merely offering passive advice. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 07:11, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
(Question is answered on that template talk page.) - Jmabel ! talk 17:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
This section was archived on a request by: -- — billinghurst sDrewth 01:22, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Guitars, bass guitars, and COM:OVERCAT

I'm currently in something of a dispute with User:186.172.16.70 over guitars, bass guitars, and (implicitly) COM:OVERCAT. If this were a logged in user, I'd try to sort this out between just the two of us but, sorry, I'm not engaging over time with an account that might be a different person each time I interact.

If I understand correctly this edit is because bass guitars are, in a sense, a form of guitar, so there is an implicit argument that Category:Male guitarists from Austria is overcat for Category:Male bass guitarists from Austria. However, bass guitar is, in practice, a distinct instrument from a regular guitar, and we don't have something like a Category:No, really I meant a normal guitar. This particular person (unlike most bass guitarists) played/plays both a bass guitar and a regular guitar professionally, and in my opinion in that case someone should certainly be categorized under both, despite the theory of OVERCAT. Do others here, besides this one user, see it differently? - Jmabel ! talk 22:18, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "regular guitar". Unless there is such a thing as irregular guitar. Do you mean Spanish guitar? Classical guitar? Ritm guitar? Of course admins are always right, this is why I chose not to be one. 186.172.16.70 23:14, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Maybe you should open a Category:Normal guitarists... 😁 186.172.16.70 23:38, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
By the way, why is Category:Bass guitarists a subcategory of Category:Guitarists? 186.172.16.70 23:58, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
By a "regular guitar" I mean one with six strings, tuned in the usual register.
I'm not sure why Category:Bass guitarists is a subcategory of Category:Guitarists, and (as a guitarist) I would not have made it so, any more than I would have made violists a subcategory of violinists. That is exactly the issue I am raising here. - Jmabel ! talk 00:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Again, would someone please weigh in besides the two of us who are already arguing? - Jmabel ! talk 15:05, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

There may be an expectation by some that the guitar(ist) categories are meant to contain guitar-like instrument(alist)s as subcategories. That issue is easily solved by {{Cat see also}}. We already have Guitar family instruments as a common category. I assume bass guitarists mostly aren't also known as (or routinely professionally performing as) "normal" guitarists – if they are, then the issue is different. –LPfi (talk) 09:06, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I would certainly be happier if, in general, bass guitars were subcatted from Category:Guitar family instruments (which should probably be hyphenated: "guitar-family" as an adjective) rather than Category:Guitars. Similarly for bass guitarists, though we don't yet have a category for players of guitar-family instruments. - Jmabel ! talk 14:45, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree with Jmabel here - in context, "guitarist" specifically means someone who plays a normal guitar, so I view this as analogous to the Category:Politicians of Germany example in COM:OVERCAT. -- King of ♥ 16:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Commons:Media knowledge beyond Wikipedia: The future of Wikimedia Commons

Hi!

A recent essay about the future scope and extent has been published. Maybe you want to add your support :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Notice: Proposal for POTY finalist topicons

Just a heads up for this board that there is an ongoing proposal to add top icons to POTY finalists over on the POTY talk page. Please discuss there if interested. — Rhododendrites talk22:03, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Invitation to participate in the #WPWPCampaign 2024

Dear community members,

We are inviting you to participate in the Wikipedia Pages Wanting Photos 2024 campaign, a global contest scheduled to run from July through August 2024:

Participants will choose among Wikipedia pages without photo images, then add a suitable file from among the many thousands of photos in the Wikimedia Commons, especially those uploaded from thematic contests (Wiki Loves Africa, Wiki Loves Earth, Wiki Loves Folklore, etc.) over the years.

In its first year (2020), 36 Wikimedia communities in 27 countries joined the campaign. Events relating to the campaign included training organized by at least 18 Wikimedia communities in 14 countries.

The campaign resulted in the addition of media files (photos, audios and videos) to more than 90,000 Wikipedia articles in 272 languages.

Wikipedia Pages Wanting Photos (WPWP) offers an ideal task for recruiting and guiding new editors through the steps of adding content to existing pages. Besides individual participation, the WPWP campaign can be used by user groups and chapters to organize editing workshops and edit-a-thons.

The organizing team is looking for a contact person to coordinate WPWP participation your language Wikipedia. We’d be glad for you to sign up directly at WPWP Participating Communities page on Meta-Wiki.

Thank you,

Reading Beans / readthebeans@gmail.com)
Project manager and coordinator
Wikipedia Pages Wanting Photos 2024

There is a map at https://bldrwnsch.toolforge.org of geocoded locations (for German language Wikipedia, sometimes articles needing additional images). Enhancing999 (talk) 18:15, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

This is vandalised!!

This catagory [[4]] has been vandalised with false information at infobox. what should to be done.
--KEmel49 (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@KEmel49: the Infobox contents are driven by Dhruv Rathee (Q96376333). Any corrections would have to be made there. You can do this; not knowing anything about the topic at hand, I would not edit on this. - Jmabel ! talk 18:09, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Cat-a-lot does still not work for categories

Though the former discussion about Cat-a-lot was archived yesterday because the problem would supposedly have been resolved, for me the problem is still the same: it still does not work for subcategories with at least one subcategory. So can this discussion be restarted and can the problem really be solved? JopkeB (talk) 03:56, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

@JopkeB: you should always feel free to "necromance" a recently archived VP section back from the archive and continue the discussion. Just be sure that your edit summaries make it clear that is what you are doing. - Jmabel ! talk 05:35, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: How do you do that? To me it looks like a next level action. Just moving/copy-paste it and mention it in the edit summary? JopkeB (talk) 04:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB: yes, though in this case cut-and-paste is more appropriate. Mention it in the edit summary both on the archive page and where you restore it. If you have something to add, this is perfectly appropriate. - Jmabel ! talk 04:43, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
indeed, i tried on Category:Energy by type of energy, selecting kinetic energy and thermal energy and using catalot to "add to cat:energy by topic". it gets stuck at "Editing page 1 of 2". RZuo (talk) 05:38, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
It would also be nice if it worked on the conventional search rather than only special search. Yesterday I noticed it displays 1000 when only 500 items have been selected. I think this should be discussed and pointed out at the Cat-a-lot talk page. And how to solve it would be the same as for most technical issues: 1) more WMF priority/spending in that area and, more importantly, 2) things to get more volunteer onboard and have them implement/solve the most important issues such as those of tools widely used like cat-a-lot, video2commons (currently dysfunctional), or the Upload Wizard which still makes people add categories that are redirects. Banners for volunteer devs on software-related Wikipedia articles as well as a campaign with things like leaderboards, badges, gamification, internal attention, possibly external reporting, prizes (maybe also anonymous bounties), and prioritized weighted issues would be a straightforward way to implement that. One can only speculate why the WMF isn't doing things like that, could be incompetence, related to techcompany donor funds, a general lack of a sense of community wishes, and/or something else. I don't think just merely asking about any particular major technical issue on VillagePump does anything. I don't think this particular problem is large though: just refresh and move the remaining subcategories using HotCat. Prototyperspective (talk) 13:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
The communities of course also can run banners themselves… —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Help me Changing the old map of the distribution of the Balinese language in English Wikipedia to this one more details to me

Areas where Balinese language is spoken

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Joese van (talk • contribs) 07:53, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

This could probably use some attention from the sockpuppetry police. --HyperGaruda (talk) 22:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Section moved to be with the obviously same issue already posted. - Jmabel ! talk 00:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
Help, Please add to Balinese Wikipedia English. 140.213.150.119 06:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
END MOVED - Jmabel ! talk 00:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal creations presented as tribal flags

Hello,
I have noted Al-Hilali Z uploads what is designated as flags of Arab tribes. None of the files has an indication of a source on which the file design has been based. When queried about this though the talk page, it is confirmed the great majority are the user's personal design. Is this not an issue, especially when these flag images end up being displayed in Wikipedia articles and presented as recognized flags when this is not accurate? Moumou82 (talk) 20:41, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Hello,
Arabs Tribes flags are very different of other flag, they dont respect vexilollogy codes, everyone is free to create Tribal flags, there are no Official flags, except in rare cases, but they are inconsistent and free to create your own design. Al-Hilali Z (talk) 08:11, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
@Al-Hilali Z: Then they are oos.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
No, they are completely legitimate, the majority of the flags that I make are made with the approval of members of the tribe and are adopted by them, there is no connection with the oos. Al-Hilali Z (talk) 10:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Your claimed approvals must be verifiable, so far you cannot demonstrate any of your claims. Moumou82 (talk) 15:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
@Moumou82: Are the blazons also made up?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
I have not seen any source suggesting anything but a personal creation, which I agree is OOS. Moumou82 (talk) 20:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Is it okay if I force category using Cat-a-lot rather than wait?

Hi everyone. I made this category: Category:ONCHI to track the files we have uploaded as a part of our project in Indonesia. It is included via this template User:RXerself/ONCHI but I put the category later than when the files were uploaded, so the category is now still only has 3 files which, 2 of which were "forced" in which one was edited manually and saved without changing anything and the other one using Cat-a-lot. MediaWiki help page on this explains that: "when changing the categories applied by a template in this fashion, the categorization of the pages which include that template may not be updated until some time later: this is handled by the job queue." [5] But it's now more than a week already and it still only has 3 files. Is it okay if I "force" the files by using Cat-a-lot? Not okay as in I would break anything, but as in if I am allowed. RXerself (talk) 22:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

should be better now. Enhancing999 (talk) 22:48, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Oh wow! How? Nice. Thank you. RXerself (talk) 15:37, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
@RXerself: purging or null editing category members should help along a background process that may be too slow to add to or subtract from the category or may have died due to performance issues on the running machine. I use AWB with {{Void}} to null-edit Category:Incomplete deletion requests - missing subpage‎ regularly due to this slow category filling and emptying issue.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:29, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there any agreement on which categories should be placed here? This honestly feel very random. Like why are Femboy, Incest, Incel and Skoliosexuality even located here?--Trade (talk) 22:55, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I am not a huge fan of "Controversial X" categories as a whole for this exact reason Trade (talk) 23:02, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm not convinced this category should exist at all. Whether a topic is "controversial" is not a judgement call which Commons should be making; it's not essential to the identity of the topic. Omphalographer (talk) 00:12, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
I have to agree with Omphalographer. Most, if not all, sexual and gender identities are controversial to some degree and depending on the time period or location. So the category is essentially meaningless. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:24, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
This category should not exist. - Jmabel ! talk 00:52, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

One of the files in the category is directly related to zoophilia. Considering this is a subcategory of both Gender identity, Sexual orientation and LGBT i'm not really a fan of what this is implying.--Trade (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

I started a CfD--Trade (talk) 01:39, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Pinging @Dronebogus, who created the category.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Help with cropping borders from images

Hi. I was wondering if people could help me crop the borders from images in Category:Images from the German Federal Archive with borders. It currently contains 23,469 images that need cropping which isn't great, but every little bit helps. Thanks. --Adamant1 (talk) 05:22, 2 June 2024 (UTC)

23,317 images now 🙂 ReneeWrites (talk) 19:20, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Why, I dont see any images in urgent need of cropping, please give some examples Broichmore (talk) 19:52, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
@Broichmore: it looks like a lot of these have a watermark in a margin. - Jmabel ! talk 21:34, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
They have catalog numbers, which say something about the DDR. Their discreet enough, not to worry about. Broichmore (talk) 10:50, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
For those who don’t know, Commons:CropTool is handy for this. —Justin (koavf)TCM 21:41, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
When it works, which it mostly doesn't lately. - Jmabel ! talk 22:09, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
I just did several with no issues. I have rarely had problems with that tool. —Justin (koavf)TCM 22:32, 2 June 2024 (UTC)
Yesterday I overwrote an image, when I went to crop out details from the new image, croptool wanted to goto the original image to do the croppng. Had to resort to GIMP to do the job. It wasn't a cache problem. Broichmore (talk) 10:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I started using CropTool yesterday to assist with this task, so far it's worked like a charm. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:44, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Good. Doing some back-of-the-envelope math, someone can plausibly do three of these a minute, so with 23,000 images, that means 128 person-hours of work, which is a lot for one person, but reasonable for a small group. —Justin (koavf)TCM 20:54, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Just to say, the museum source has not cropped them, why would they not? There seems to be some kind of mania, here, in cropping out borders to satisfy OCD urges. Margins prove the extent of images, they confirm that images are indeed complete. Any source museum would consider this vanadalism. I have to say that certain museums employ prestigous decals on their images, claiming source, the Imperial War Museum, The British Library, the Bundesarchive in this case. Cropping out these details, deny them the opportunity of advertising, which is cheeky when you consider they curate these images for us for free. These Bundesarchiv decals that are being cropped out deny 'end users' easy attribution of where these images come from. Wikipedia in particular is bad for not only referencing the source museum, but also even the artist. Furthermore, in the new world of AI, these decals go some way to prove authenticity. At this point their discreet enough, not to worry about. This is not a good use of our resources, and is wrong. Broichmore (talk) 08:24, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

@Broichmore: I don't necessarily disagree. If I had my way I'd probably just remove the crop requests, but I didn't add them to begin with and I try to respect what other users want. It would at least be less work to just not crop the images to begin with though. --Adamant1 (talk) 09:35, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Indeed, the thing is that every so often editors discover the crop tool and see it as an easy pastime. When in fact it's a tool that should be rarely used, and with great caution. The average original uploader is more than capable of cropping their images prior to uploading, their wishes should be respected.
Even in these images, the Bundesarchiv logo, tell us so much. Date, German origin, the importance put on collecting the image by the German government, and that they consider it being worthy of preservation, & etc. Broichmore (talk) 09:53, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
This misunderstands how Wikipedia/Commons attributes images. The sources and authors are listed on the image's descriptions pages, not in the text on Wikipedia itself (this also to discourage using Wikipedia as a tool for self-promotion). With regards to this collection specifically, the information listed in the image is also listed on the page (the bild ID (and a link to the ID on the archive), the year it was taken, the name of the photographer, if one is known, the archive itself). This is where that information is supposed to be; there is no need to have it be visible on the image too. This kind of visible watermarking is discouraged. Invisible watermarking on the other hand is encouraged because it doesn't interfere with the contents of the images themselves. Every single one of the images in this collection has invisible watermarking too (the EXIF data if you scroll to the bottom), which contains the same information that's visible in the margins, and is wholly unaffected by the crop tool. ReneeWrites (talk) 13:31, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
@ReneeWrites: I don't misunderstand anything. While attribution is optional on Wikipedia; not every source is notable. However, many, and most are!
Discerning casual readers (who are, who Wikipedia aims itself) want to know the source of artwork or notable photographs.
I am yet to see an encyclopaedia, or source book which does not attribute at the front end. Children's books don’t attribute. Hiding attribution as you describe, is a successful way of withholding information from Wikipedia’s readership. The majority of which, are in computing terms illiterate.
As an incentive, the secret to successful Wikipedia writing is creating ''links'' to other articles on the project. There is an ongoing opportunity to link, to articles, about ''said'' notable artists and photographers. Those players, in turn, are often part of the stories themselves.
You couldn’t be more wrong, attribution and referencing is the very woof and warp of an encyclopaedia. Broichmore (talk) 19:19, 8 June 2024 (UTC)
If you want the image info to be visible directly in Wikipedia articles, then try to create a policy on Wikipedia recommending attribution in the caption. The info in the image border isn't visible in the thumbnails actually shown. You need to click at the image anyway to be able to read that information, and it is much more prominent in the actual file description than in the tiny text on the border. Now, clicking may get you to the image viewer instead of the image description page, but even then, clicking "more info" (and searching for that link) isn't unreasonable if you want to get to that info. (Many books attribute images in a separate list instead of "at the front line"; if you want the info, you have to look for it.) –LPfi (talk) 06:58, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

List of living people & privacy

Hi,
I was wondering if there were any privacy issues with a list of people's names, like this one?
Thanks. --Kontributor 2K (talk) 10:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

Similar images available at Category:Name lists and Category:Lists of people (side note: should these be merged?) Dogfennydd (talk) 12:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
I mean that this a list of living people (1977), where you can see their religion and early school's name, hence my question
--Kontributor 2K (talk) 12:44, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
This would be unbelievable to have in Germany :D --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 18:32, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately Ancestry would guillotine the books to ease scanning then discard the originals. I used to buy them at book sales and see if it was on their list of needed copies, but stopped when I learned their policy. Having them online is absolutely awesome. --RAN (talk) 21:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
in germany you can find a list of full names and a group photo of students doing abitur in a certain year on the newspaper and its website. XD
that's unbelievable in many other countries. RZuo (talk) 05:41, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
  • In France, it's illegal too to distribute private data without the prior consent of the concerned people. --Kontributor 2K (talk) 07:30, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
    • This is probably just my lack of understanding of French law but, @Kontributor 2K: given that this appears to have been a published document, how is this "private data"? - Jmabel ! talk 17:46, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
      • I don't think it's been published (like a book); it's just been printed.
        In general, this type of document is given to families at the end of the school year, or after the ceremony.
        It's not a public document. --Kontributor 2K (talk) 17:58, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
  • Under international copyright law that does constitute being "made public", also lists of names are not copyrightable. To be eligible for a copyright a work must have unique creative elements. If you asked a dozen people to compile the list of names, each person would create an identical list. If you asked a dozen people to compile a list of the best music of all time, each list would be different and copyrightable, that is why the Time 100 list each year is copyrighted, or the Fortune 500 list. --RAN (talk) 21:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
    You mean the Berne convention? Anyway, is privacy law coordinated with copyright terminology? In Finland, we have a lot of material that is public (you will get it if you ask), but still publishing it in a newspaper or similar is illegal unless there is sufficient public interest or other specific reasons to. This includes tax records and court cases. –LPfi (talk) 07:16, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Michael Winter in skeleton suit lying outside the German chancellor's residence to protest the lack of action on climate policy
Climate activist Tessel Hofstede from XR Netherlands speaks to Letzte Generation in Berlin in 2023

I took the photograph shown and have had a clear and unequivocal discussion with Michael Winter, the subject, that I can upload that and similar images to Wikimedia under CC‑BY‑4.0. Michael also provided me with his email address on my request and I was intending to follow up with a proper "release form".

That event occurred in Berlin, Germany of course and German and European privacy law would prevail.

I have had a reasonable look around this site and could not find mention of any formalized processes like this. The notion of "asserted consent" is traversed. So I take it that Wikimedia does not wish to provide support for written agreements of this nature? I guess that position is understandable? Particularly given the large number of legal jurisdictions involved and also changing statutes and evolving case law.

So I suppose the best thing to do in this particular case is to undertake some email traffic with Michael and leave that exchange on my hard‑drive as a kind of insurance policy? Any assistance welcome. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 17:54, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the process is described at COM:VRT. GPSLeo (talk) 17:59, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
COM:VRT talks mainly about licensing by copyright-holders, but the same process could presumably be used to ticket for issues related to other rights. You might want to ask a question at Commons:Volunteer Response Team/Noticeboard to find out how they'd prefer to to handle this particular case. - Jmabel ! talk 18:05, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks GPSLeo and Jmabel. I did once use that process for another image in relation to consent. In that case, my associated email traffic was somehow stored out of public view and linked backed to the particular image. I also presume that my earlier assumption that the concept of release forms is not supported by Wikimedia due to the legal complexities present. Thanks both for your quick responses. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 19:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
According to Commons:Photographs of identifiable people you could add {{Personality rights}} and {{Consent}} if you haven’t already. Bidgee (talk) 19:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
Maybe we could add a param to consent, so that people can reference a document id, link or VRT/OTRS id. That might be worthwhile! —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 19:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)
For what it is worth, the accompanying image of the woman in yellow uses the following field "permission={{VRT info|1=2024050810008791}}" as part of the 'Information' template. RobbieIanMorrison (talk) 21:21, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
Only the VRT agents can see what info that ticket includes, so whether it is relevant to this discussion is unclear. But yes, that's the way to link to such correspondence. You could reference it in the permission field if you want reusers to know something about what privacy issues are covered. –LPfi (talk) 08:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Placement of recurring terms in sets of subcategories

Are pre- or postmodifiers preferable in cases like those that are being discussed in Commons:Categories for discussion/2023/12/Category:Old women sitting? I.e. when the option is semantically appropriate and linguistically feasible, do we want e.g. sitting-related subcategories to be called "Sitting x, Sitting y, Sitting z" or "x sitting, y sitting, z sitting"? As per my post in the category discussion, I think the latter makes the most sense, but perhaps there is more information and/or user consensus to be found somewhere. Sinigh (talk) 14:07, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

Makes sense but "Old women" is also a recurring term so the optimal solution both this and items where the former term is a nonrecurring one would be to have redirects so that e.g. Old women sitting redirects to Sitting old women or the other way around. Would be good if there was a bot/script that did so / created redirect proposals one could quickly confirm or add to a list of likely inappropriate proposed redirects. (The same could maybe also be done for category names in languages other than English but that's another topic.) Prototyperspective (talk) 15:35, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

EK 318 flight Dubai Tokyo 11 may 2024

I was seated close to a window and have taken some pictures: The camera time is the time in Amsterdam, not the local time. The route is trough Pakistan and China. There where no delays.

Identifying the location would be usefull. Smiley.toerist (talk) 11:25, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I've done this sort of thing a lot. I strongly recommend plunging into Google Maps looking for similar landforms. (BTW, for the future: much easier if you take a lot of pictures, even if you don't plan to use them all.) - Jmabel ! talk 14:59, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Also useful is if you are listening in-flight to the pilots talk to Air Traffic Controllers, making a note of which Air Traffic Controllers' areas the pilots are told to switch to (the next area on the flight plan); for flights arriving here, that is typically "New York Approach". The frequencies are not necessary for this purpose. It will help if you can listen in English, as that appears to be the standard language of air traffic control worldwide.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 15:09, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
De official times are Dubai departure 02:40 am local time and arrival at Tokyo 17:35 pm local Japanese times. Camera time Amsterdam GMT + 1 (+ 1 summertime); Dubai GMT + 4; Japan GMT + 9. 7 hour difference between Japan and Amsterdam. China is GMT + 8). From what I remenber the plane avoided India went trough Pakistan and then took a more or less straight line trough China and South Korea passing trough large Chinese dessert areas. So the Himalayas would be at de western end by the Pakistan / Chinese border, but could also be inside China.Smiley.toerist (talk) 16:52, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
@Smiley.toerist: At least the city on last three images should be relatively easy to identify e.g. with Google Maps satellite mode; provided you know at least approximately what area and/or what country had been overflown at that timepoint, as otherwise this would be a search for the "needle in a haystack".
In general, it's quite tricky and common landforms are difficult to identify afterwards, likewise in flight because from my experience, GPS on your phone seldom works well in flight. --A.Savin 16:27, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The solution to have and keep a GPS connection in fast moving vehicles with a smartphone is to activate a constant tracking before you start moving. For these photos case it might be the best solution to look at the Flightradar24 data for the flight and then matching the capture time. But that requires a paid account there. GPSLeo (talk) 16:43, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
The last picture must be in Japan, about 15 minutes before landing. With the long shadow of a western sun, this must be an east coast. Smiley.toerist (talk) 17:02, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
Bingo! The Kaimon Bridge by Kaimoncho.Smiley.toerist (talk) 17:11, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
(EK 318 flight Dubai Tokyo 11 may 2024 4) is close to JR station Izumi and (EK 318 flight Dubai Tokyo 11 may 2024 5) is close to Otsu port (found on GE). I have problems finding the correct location categories. Narita airport was approached from the north along the coast.Smiley.toerist (talk) 17:56, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I have worked the 3 Japanese pictures. For one File:EK 318 flight Dubai Tokyo 11 may 2024 4.jpg, I set the location coordinates of the estmated viewpoint up in the air, but it maybe better to have the coordinates of the center of the image. In this case the river entry point in the ocean.Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:20, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Use ADSB data...
  1. Go to https://www.flightaware.com/live/flight/UAE318
  2. Select flight from past flights (right now only goes back to 21 May, but free basic member can go back 3 months)
  3. click track log to show time → latitude longitude
Glrx (talk) 17:37, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
I managed to find the location of the desert village in Xinjiang
Camera location38° 39′ 53.74″ N, 87° 21′ 19.6″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo
, by doing some time and distance calculations and finding out that the village must be about 3.258 km from Dubai. The scharp dark green fields contrast with the more dessert like image from Google Earth. The most dificult to lokalise images must be the two mountain images where I wil probably be using ADSB data.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:21, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Calculating that the mountain views 71 minutes before the dessert village, places the mountains within Pakistan. (13,03 km by minute)Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
The ADSB data of past fligths indicate that the plane usualy crosses Chinese border halfway between the Afganistan border and the Indian border (line of control). Close to the line, a bit to the East is the K2 mountain. However it is complicated to find the rigth mountain.Smiley.toerist (talk) 19:59, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
ADSB for flight that took off Sunday 02:45:00 AM UTC+04
I have to use camera time as UTC+2. Otherwise, the last picture is taken after the plane lands.
Pictures
ADSB Location
Picture EXIF Time
11 May 2024
UTC+2
UTC
11 May 2024
EDT
UTC-4
Location Heading
1 03:39 0139Z 21:39
36° 06′ 41.4″ N, 75° 16′ 14.16″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo

FlightAware estimated (10 mins since last fix)
→ 70°
2 03:40 0140Z 21:40
36° 06′ 41.4″ N, 75° 16′ 14.16″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo

FlightAware estimated (10 mins since last fix)
→ 70°
3 04:51 0251Z 22:51
38° 45′ 34.92″ N, 86° 14′ 08.52″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo

FlightAware estimated (80 mins since last fix)
→ 76°
22:58:36
+7.5 min
38° 57′ 39.24″ N, 87° 20′ 20.4″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo

FlightAware estimated (90 mins since last fix)
→ 77°
4 10:12 0812Z 04:12
36° 14′ 53.88″ N, 140° 38′ 03.84″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo
↘ 133°
5 10:12 0812Z 04:12
36° 14′ 53.88″ N, 140° 38′ 03.84″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo
↘ 133°
6 10:17 0817Z 04:17
35° 56′ 35.88″ N, 140° 45′ 37.8″ E Kartographer map based on OpenStreetMap.View all coordinates using: OpenStreetMapinfo
← 289°
Glrx (talk) 23:11, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you all!   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 23:58, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. The positions are estimations and imprecise. I was on a seat on the left side. By the landing (4, 5, 6) the plane was clearly flying over land and not over the sea. The details of picture 3 match with the GE satelite picture. As the plane was flying around 10 km heigth and the village has a low altitude of 1017 meter above sealevel the plane must have been someway south of that position.Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:36, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
For pictures 1 and 2 the sun was a morning sun from the east. Pic 2 is the same mountain taken a minute later.Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:45, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
First, a jetliner cruises at about 1000 kmph or 16 km per minute. An error of 5 minutes is 80 km.
I did not interpolate the position from the ADSB data; instead I just chose a close time. Interpolation would be better if we know the times are accurate.
The error for the village is large. To match the longitude, I had to advance the time by 7.5 minutes, but the ADSB plane position was still well north of where it should be. The issue is partly resolved by the position being estimated because there is no actual ADSB data during that part of the flight.
The ADSB data that is not estimated should be accurate. The numbers I used do put the plane over water when it should be over land. However, you can look at track as it approaches the airport and see that portions of that track do align with the pictures.
That error may just be a time offset. You might see how accurate your camera clock is right now. Alternatively, you could try to figure it out from a reasonable track position for a particular image. That's what I was trying to do with the 7.5-minute village offset until I realized the track didn't fit and noticed the ADSB data for that time was only an estimate.
The EXIF data also has a quantization error of 1 minute.
I expect the ADSB times to be derived from the GPS satellites.
Glrx (talk) 21:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
I have added coordinates to the landing images 5 and 6, on the visual estimation with identified landmarks 'Cape Otsu' (File:Cape Otsu Lighthouse (Kitaibaraki City).jpg) and 'Kaimon Bridge'.Smiley.toerist (talk) 08:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Flickr & file credit

Is it actually useful for structured data to mark my own file that I copied from my own Flickr account as authored by Flickr user Joe Mabel, as against Commons user Jmabel (both me)? - Jmabel ! talk 15:04, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

I would say so. Most Commons users upload their files here directly, not via Flickr. And most of the time when people upload files from Flickr with the Flickr2Commons plugin they are not the original author of those images, so it makes sense (and is imo useful) if that credit line is automatically attributed to the Flickr profile the images are from. For your own images you could always edit the credit line to your Commons profile if you prefer to be credited that way. ReneeWrites (talk) 20:27, 4 June 2024 (UTC)
@ReneeWrites: I did rewrite the credit in the wikitext. And then the bot goes through and writes the SDC as if I had not done so. - Jmabel ! talk 05:18, 5 June 2024 (UTC)
Disregard my previous comment, I misunderstood the problem. ReneeWrites (talk) 11:21, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Here is a much more egregious example: File:Ford Model "T" car no. 2, winner of the 1909 trans-continental race from New York to Seattle.jpg. At all times, the Wikitext has accurately indicated that this is a photo by Frank H. Nowell, official photographer of the Alaska-Yukon-Pacific Exposition. Originally that was in the description rather than the author field, but I fixed that in 2010 and added a {{Creator}} template in 2016. FlickypediaBackfillrBot marked it today in SDC as being created by University of Washington Libraries Digital Collections because that is the immediate source. That strikes me as absolutely wrong.

@Alexwlchan: do you consider this correct behavior by your bot, and if so why? Otherwise, is there some hope of addressing this? - Jmabel ! talk 17:44, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that the SDC should point to the named photographer if known, and not the Flickr user.
I think the bot’s behaviour is fine.
  • It didn't delete or replace the information in the Wikitext. It only added a creator (P170) SDC statement because there wasn’t one on this file before.
  • If there's already a creator (P170) statement, the bot leaves it as-is. I could point you to literally thousands of examples where the bot has looked at a file, seen a P170 with more specific information, and left it as-is.
  • If the file is edited to add a more specific statement, the bot will leave it as-is. I’ve done a manual edit to replace the Flickr user statement with one that points to Frank H. Nowell (Q26202833), and if/when the bot processes that file again, it won’t make any changes to P170.
Is this a widespread problem with the bot, or is this an unusual example? Alexwlchan (talk) 08:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
    • I'd say it's widespread. It is going to happen literally any time a user first uploads their own content to Flickr and than imports it to Commons, and literally any time a third party posts historical content to Flickr and someone imports that. - Jmabel ! talk 17:50, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Notification of DMCA takedown demand — Autobiography of Banbhatta

In compliance with the provisions of the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), and at the instruction of the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel, one or more files have been deleted from Commons. Please note that this is an official action of the Wikimedia Foundation office which should not be undone. If you have valid grounds for a counter-claim under the DMCA, please contact me.

The takedown can be read here.

Affected file(s):

To discuss this DMCA takedown, please go to COM:DMCA#Autobiography of Banbhatta. Thank you! Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) 23:03, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Announcing the first Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki. Please help translate to your language

Hello,

The scrutineers have finished reviewing the vote results. We are following up with the results of the first Universal Code of Conduct Coordinating Committee (U4C) election.

We are pleased to announce the following individuals as regional members of the U4C, who will fulfill a two-year term:

  • North America (USA and Canada)
  • Northern and Western Europe
  • Latin America and Caribbean
  • Central and East Europe (CEE)
  • Sub-Saharan Africa
  • Middle East and North Africa
  • East, South East Asia and Pacific (ESEAP)
  • South Asia

The following individuals are elected to be community-at-large members of the U4C, fulfilling a one-year term:

Thank you again to everyone who participated in this process and much appreciation to the candidates for your leadership and dedication to the Wikimedia movement and community.

Over the next few weeks, the U4C will begin meeting and planning the 2024-25 year in supporting the implementation and review of the UCoC and Enforcement Guidelines. Follow their work on Meta-wiki.

On behalf of the UCoC project team,

RamzyM (WMF) 08:14, 3 June 2024 (UTC)

Can I use this picture

I have found this on flickr[6]. It is a photo of an original picture held in the Royal Library, Copenhagen. It is described, in:
Niklas Eriksson & Johan Rönnby (2017) Mars (1564): the initial archaeological investigations of a great 16th‐century Swedish warship, International Journal of Nautical Archaeology, 46:1, 92-107, DOI: 10.1111/1095-9270.12210 [7]
as "Illustration from a Danish manuscript, signed Rudolf van Deventer 1585".

The flickr version claims copyright – but presumably that is only copyright of the photograph. The illustration itself is clearly over 400 years old.

Is there any route through the various copyright laws that would allow a version of this picture to be uploaded to commons? Obviously, as well as the flickr version, there is the one in the paper listed above. There is also a cropped version in
Niklas Eriksson (2019) How Large Was Mars? An investigation of the dimensions of a legendary Swedish warship, 1563–1564, The Mariner's Mirror, 105:3, 260-274, DOI: 10.1080/00253359.2019.1615775 (Open access[8])
Other pictures of the wreck of this vessel look to be heavily protected in copyright law, so this old picture would be of real value. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 19:28, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

You can upload it and tag with a {{Pd-art}} template. Ruslik (talk) 20:02, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
More precisely, {{PD-Art|PD-old-100-expired}}. - Jmabel ! talk 03:46, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Renaming the Community Wishlist Survey: Vote for your preferred name

Thank you to everyone who has provided feedback on renaming the Community Wishlist Survey. We now have 3 names for you to choose from:

1. Community Ideas Exchange

2. Community Feature Requests

3. Community Suggestions Portal

You are invited to vote for one that works for you. –– STei (WMF) (talk) 15:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

What's the cost of this rename to WMF? Do we really need to spend resources on this rather than actually doing some development? Enhancing999 (talk) 19:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Naming of concert photography categories

Do we have any guidelines on how to name categories on Commons for specific concerts? I feel like there is a lot of freedom. Maybe it would be worth developing a scheme such as: Artist name - Place - Date or different in a specific format? Example of diversity in naming: c:Category:2013 concerts in the United States Gower (talk) 05:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I believe we do not have such a standard, and doubt we need one. - Jmabel ! talk 12:41, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
It probably depends on the artist and concert but I don't think the place or date needs to be in the name of the category in a good perecentage of cases. That's what parent categories are for. --Adamant1 (talk) 13:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
a lot of times categories for events are just titled according to their official names. sometimes when that name is not special enough a year, a date or a location is appended in parentheses, e.g. (2024) or (London).
it certainly helps if you choose to name your categories in a very detailed format. imo, a format of "concert name (yyyy-mm-dd)" is good enough, because quite rarely there would be two concerts of the same name on the same date? if the concert has no name, then "artistname's concert (yyyy-mm-dd)". if there are multiple artists involved then "Concert at venuename, city (yyyy-mm-dd)". RZuo (talk) 07:20, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Mechanism to request an image/map made

Hi, I was wondering if there could be a mechanism for requesting a map be made? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexanderkowal (talk • contribs) 20:08, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@Alexanderkowal: Commons:Graphic Lab/Map workshop - Jmabel ! talk 22:37, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you Alexanderkowal (talk) 12:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Cat for all foreign leaders visiting a specific country?

e.g. cat that includes both president of france visiting london and king of norway visiting london?

existing cat structure for a specific person visiting other countries is Category:Politicians in foreign countries. RZuo (talk) 09:27, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

See for example Category:Visits of foreign politicians to Germany. However from what I can see only few countries have such a category so far and there is no common parental "visits .. by country" category. --A.Savin 12:22, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
Strangely the hierarchy brings President Biden visiting Russia. Enhancing999 (talk) 19:14, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

underscores in file names

When I name a file on my Windows PC in a folder, and then upload using the wizard, underscores and or dashes appear in the file name. How to stop it from doing that? -Broichmore (talk) 14:45, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

@Broichmore: Spaces get converted to underscores (if necessary) for URL purposes, but both are stored as spaces and can be used either way (I find the underscores ugly, and so does AutoEd). What is getting converted to dashes for you?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 16:09, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
MediaWiki will generally convert characters not allowed in filenames to dashes. Typically that means : / \ < > [ ] | # { } but can also include more obscure characters, such as control characters. Bawolff (talk) 19:12, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
  • That is by design, it can be annoying when you want to download, and then reupload to another website and use the filename as a description of image. You then have to remove the underscores by hand. --RAN (talk) 19:03, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

سرآسونٱ

See Commons:Deletion requests/سرآسونٱ Jarekt (talk) 01:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

The final text of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now on Meta

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki. Please help translate to your language

Hi everyone,

The final text of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now up on Meta in more than 20 languages for your reading.

What is the Wikimedia Movement Charter?

The Wikimedia Movement Charter is a proposed document to define roles and responsibilities for all the members and entities of the Wikimedia movement, including the creation of a new body – the Global Council – for movement governance.

Join the Wikimedia Movement Charter “Launch Party”

Join the “Launch Party” on June 20, 2024 at 14.00-15.00 UTC (your local time). During this call, we will celebrate the release of the final Charter and present the content of the Charter. Join and learn about the Charter before casting your vote.

Movement Charter ratification vote

Voting will commence on SecurePoll on June 25, 2024 at 00:01 UTC and will conclude on July 9, 2024 at 23:59 UTC. You can read more about the voting process, eligibility criteria, and other details on Meta.

If you have any questions, please leave a comment on the Meta talk page or email the MCDC at mcdc@wikimedia.org.

On behalf of the MCDC,

RamzyM (WMF) 08:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

After reading it, I noticed that:
  • Charter refers some "community leadership" as teh accountable body for each Wikimedia project, without defining what it means (the whole community, some specific members?);
  • Charter rules over all Wikimedia project policies, but not over those of the Wikimedia affiliates and the WMF;
  • Charter leaves WMF out of the Global Council (community + affiliates), as an independent body at the same power level;
  • While the whole community, including affiliate people, get to elect 12 seats out of 25 in the Global Council, affiliates themselves get an additional 8 seats for themselves, which I considere a severe and totally unjustified unbalance of power towards affiliates;
I don't think this is acceptable, and will certainly vote to block this charter. I advise you to read it carefully, and eventually block it as well, as I don't see how this could favor our community. Darwin Ahoy! 16:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Why was this picture deleted with speedy deletion criteria? There is an article in the Hebrew Wikipedia about Yuval Karniel. This is a very puzzling deletion. See Category:Yuval Karniel. I am a VRT volunteer, and the photographer User:Pinhas stern contacted VRT system and asked why it was deleted. Hanay (talk) 05:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

It's concerning that this comes just days after I notified Alachuckthebuck about similar incorrect F10 tagging. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 19:45, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Low server performance?

Hi!

It feels like the servers' performance seems to be decreased compared to the last weeks. Database queries take a lot longer, file publishing sometimes has a huge delay, and also the amount of uploaded files and data has decreased considerably. Do you experience this, too and what could be the reasons? Greetings --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 08:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@PantheraLeo1359531: This may have something to do with phab:T363622.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 12:11, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks :) --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 13:39, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
I was trying to edit my watchlist to reduce it .. but that times out too. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:16, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@Enhancing999: I got the following when I tried:
MediaWiki internal error.
Original exception: [f497cc8d-d5a6-4ad1-95eb-db2be5de539e] 2024-06-13 13:19:30: Fatal exception of type "Wikimedia\Rdbms\DBQueryError"
Exception caught inside exception handler.
Set $wgShowExceptionDetails = true; at the bottom of LocalSettings.php to show detailed debugging information.
  — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:22, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Special:EditWatchlist/raw works. Enhancing999 (talk) 13:30, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@Enhancing999: Thanks, but "Not enough memory to open this page" is not exactly a ringing endorsement.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 03:19, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Have I got this right now

The file that I uploaded File:An illustration of a Swedish warship, probably Mars, under attack by a Danish ship.jpg has a warning of deletion as the copyright status is unclear. This is a reproduction of an illustration made in the year 1585. I have sourced it from its appearance in an academic paper, though it is also available on flickr (both sources given with the file). Have I met all the requirements or am I still missing something? Thanks, ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:36, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

@ThoughtIdRetired You uploaded the file without a license, so the bot came and tagged it. Next time this happens simply remove the deletion notice after fixing the license. Darwin Ahoy! 21:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, though I have to say that removing the deletion notice sounds a bit like marking your own homework. For some reason I have never felt totally comfortable with my level of understanding copyright law, which might explain that sentiment. And that bot must have worked pretty quickly on this occasion, because in the past I have often uploaded with the wrong or a missing licence then immediately edited with the correct licence from a file that I know to have an identical copyright situation. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 22:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
@ThoughtIdRetired: if you are less than fully confident, then rather than just remove the tag, start a DR, and in the DR, note what you did. - Jmabel ! talk 01:06, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Can you decode "DR" for me? Thanks. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 10:32, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
That would be a deletion request. --Robert Flogaus-Faust (talk) 13:30, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

& @ThoughtIdRetired: Good stuff! Any idea why the cannonballs have flames from both sides, were they incendiary cannonballs? Was it a special weapon, or just an artist never drawing a cannonball before. --RAN (talk) 14:55, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Our original upload in 2014 describes this picture as The battle between the Danish and Swedish admiral ships Jägmästaren and Sankt Erik. The image was used en:Action of 7 July 1565. Broichmore (talk) 15:54, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Looking at a larger image, they seem to be incendiary cannonballs. -- Asclepias (talk) 16:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
The paper cited as the source argues that the ship is "probably" Mars. The arguments seem reasonable as this is a two decked ship (rare at the time, certainly in the Baltic) which caught fire in battle and ultimately exploded. I would suggest taking a look at the two archaeological papers cited in the article on Mars. Frustratingly, there are different historical accounts of the action – it probably doesn't help that the Swedish admiral involved was a bit of a celebrity. I take it that the cannon balls are incendiary ammunition – the original source of the illustration was a treatise on naval gunnery, so it seems. ThoughtIdRetired (talk) 20:39, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Many thanks. I'll leave it to you to cross refer notes on the two images. Also, same for whether or not Deventer is a von or a van? Once you decide, I'll enter him into Wikidata. Last, the cannballs, this is actually en:Chain shot of a kind? Broichmore (talk) 22:18, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

Please undelete File:לירן כוג'הינוף - עותק.jpg. There is VRT permission for this file. Thanks Hanay (talk) 00:29, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

COM:Exif

I recently noticed that COM:Exif is linked from Special:UploadWizard's warning that files may contain metadata. I migrated the translation to the Translate extension, and while doing so I noticed that a lot of the page is either out of date (there's advice for Windows XP) or not particularly useful to a non-technical user. I'm not in a position to rewrite it, as I only use exiftool on Linux to mess with metadata. AntiCompositeNumber (talk) 18:59, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

The Windows XP's part should probably be removed. Ruslik (talk) 20:05, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

{{GFDL}}-only is no longer accepted for new uploads on Commons (since 2018), English Wikipedia (since 2021) and some other wikis because GFDL is not a good license for media files. {{GFDL-with-disclaimers}} are even worse so a lot have been done for many years to get rid of them per en:Wikipedia:GFDL standardization (since 2007).

I noticed that some wikis still upload files licensed GFDL and some even with disclaimers (and more still host such files).

So if there are anyone out there that have any good ideas on how to get all wikis to stop using disclaimers and if possible also the use of GFDL-only or would like to help make that happen it would be great.

I have made a list of wikis and files uploaded with GFDL (table below only have a few of the wikis and it is just to illustrate):

Language/category Number of files Remarks
w:af:Kategorie:GFDL-beelde 182
w:als:Kategorie:GFDL-Bild 24
w:an:Categoría:Imáchens GFDL 13
w:ar:تصنيف:صور رخصة جنو 552
w:en:Category:GFDL files with disclaimers 10,914
v:it:Categoria:Immagini GFDL 34
v:ru:Категория:Файлы:GFDL 7
voy:en:Category:GFDL files 13
m:Category:Presumed GFDL images 459

The full list is located at m:User:MGA73/GFDL files.

I noted some idea at m:User:MGA73/Status#How_to_help_cleaning_up_GFDL and basicly it is stop upload of new files, clean up existing files, move the good files to Commons (if possible) and delete the bad files. (If possible also fix m:File metadata cleanup drive.)

But that will only work if someone does something and it goes a lot faster if many help :-) --MGA73 (talk) 07:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Nice, thanks for making the list! —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:18, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Mirrored image

File:Drake Milligan at The Brick Bar Oxford Ohio.jpg is clearly mirrored, as all other images of Drake Milligan show him playing right-handed. (The bass in the background is mirrored too.) Can someone please un-mirror this image? TenPoundHammer (talk) 10:37, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@TenPoundHammer: I added it to Category:Images to be flopped back for you.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:26, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Does the 15-16 June 2024 Ukraine peace summit logo consist "entirely of a simple geometric combination of shapes and text"? The official alt text describes the ring pattern as "overlapping blue and yellow circles". I see them rather as 10 greyish concentric annuli and 10 yellowish concentric annuli with a partial transparency rule used to show the intersecting parts. So rather simple, but not completely trivial. The Swiss flag is on there too, and that is geometrically very simple and has at least one PD version on Commons.

So does this logo count as a free logo under the simple geometric combination argument, as described at w:Wikipedia:Logos#Copyright-free logos? Is it uploadable to Commons? Boud (talk) 20:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

@Boud: Looks OK. In the future, when providing links, it is much preferred not to use URLs that result in downloads to the file system of the computer that is accessing. - Jmabel ! talk 22:35, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
OK, cool - thanks! Regarding the URL, I don't see how it's possible to provide a URL to a file that does not result in downloading the file. Without downloading the file, the file cannot be viewed.
But you also refer to storage in a file system. My guess is what you mean is that it's better to provide a URL that can be used to view an image in a browser tab - in which case the file is downloaded and stored in RAM and very likely also in a cache on a file system, which the user will generally not notice. I did notice that that my browser refuses to display that file in a tab using that URL. Just now I found that removing /jcr:content/renditions/original is sufficient for browser display of the file, in which the file is only stored in RAM and in a cache area of the file system - so thanks for the tip :). I guess jcr:content/... redirects to a script which insists on downloading and storage in a file system and refuses to allow downloading and displaying in a browser tab. Boud (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes, everything is likely cached, but normally when you browse to a page you don't need to explicitly delete it to free the disk space back up. - Jmabel ! talk 23:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
By the way, for copyright expertise, Village pump/Copyright is generally a better place to ask. - Jmabel ! talk 22:36, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
OK, thanks, noted. Boud (talk) 23:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
it's may be COM:TOO Switzerland--Shiro NekoОбг. 15:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Japanese categories

These type of coin operated 'game' machines are usualy only found in funfairs, but in Japan these are in permanent shops. I hesitade to call these shops, but how should we classify them?

These kind of overhead power distribution is very common in Japan. Wich category? Smiley.toerist (talk) 09:30, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

For the second question: Category:Pole-mounted transformers in Japan I suppose. Alexpl (talk) 13:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
I created: Category:Electrical distribution in Japan. Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
@Smiley.toerist: In British English I'd call the first kind of thing an "amusement arcade". They're quite common in seaside resorts here. And we've got Category:Amusement arcades in Japan which seems to cover the right kind of thing. --bjh21 (talk) 13:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

This machine is basicaly an ticketing machine, but it has also a money change function where banknotes are exchanged for coins.Smiley.toerist (talk) 22:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

@Smiley.toerist, please see Category:Ticket machines in Japan and Category:Automatic coin dispensers. —⁠andrybak (talk) 00:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
I propose to create a subcategory: 'Rail fare machines on rail vehicles in Japan'. Sometimes no ticket is issued but you get permission to leave the train/tram after dropping the coins or check out with a card. On some local trains you print a ticket with the starting station. Above is a display showing how much must be paid at the next station from the starting station. At buzy stations the payment/check is done at the station gate.Smiley.toerist (talk) 10:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Weibo Watermark- Advertising?

Hey-- Is the Weibo Watermark in the lower right of this image advertising per Commons? File:全景图 深圳湾公园 远看香港 - By 科技小辛 - panoramio.jpg --Geographyinitiative (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

It is not a reason not to host the photo, assuming that is what you are asking. - Jmabel ! talk 22:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
I think he's asking about the watermark specifically. COM:WM makes a distinction between different types of watermarks, this one squarely lands in the second category (promotional watermarks). Those kinds of watermarks should be removed but the file is fine to host here, even with the watermark. ReneeWrites (talk) 23:06, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

7000x Georgia, the country

What's the plan for the 7000+ subcategories, now that the country was moved from Category:Georgia to Category:Georgia (country)?

The discussion started in 2017 was finally closed at the beginning of the month (see Commons:Categories for discussion/2017/03/Category:Georgia).

Ideally we wont have these categories in different states for months or years. Enhancing999 (talk) 22:41, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

It clearly should have been part of the conversation. Short-sighted to not have had a plan of the extensive nature, and the migration, and whether that change should have occurred.  — billinghurst sDrewth 23:37, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
It's going to be particularly tricky for anything template-driven. - Jmabel ! talk 23:58, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
I did not take part in that discussion, but I agree with you. It might be of a big help if Cat-a-lot would work again for categories. JopkeB (talk) 08:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Supposedly people involved were aware that this can imply a lot of work.
I guess we would need to find an admin to do the requests at User:CommonsDelinker/commands. I can help with Category:Non-empty category redirects. Enhancing999 (talk) 10:03, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

What? This is an outrageous decision! This was 10-6 votes over the course of seven years, which means practically nobody participated and people were not aware that this was ongoing. If this were still open now, I'd vote  Strong oppose; no other extant country needs to be disambiguated. Is there support for a CfD to quickly move it back? --Enyavar (talk) 13:02, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

 Strong oppose as well! There is a LOT of disagreement in the CfD, but all of a sudden Sbb1413 simply declared a clear consensus without notifying any of the several users who clearly disagreed with it. This CfD needs to be reopened and the small amount of change done already backed off until a real consensus is reached to make such a massive change. No more categories should be changed to (country) form until this happens. Josh (talk) 15:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Apologies for my decision. I couldn't understand that there were a lot of disagreements related to the country name. I won't close any controversial CFD now on. The CFD can be reopened without prejudice. Sbb1413 (he) (talkcontribs) 15:08, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
@Sbb1413 Completely understood. I am very confident that it was a well meaning attempt, and hopefully I was clear in my comments on re-opening that this wasn't about you at all, just a need to close it correctly and make sure it really is a consensus. I've done the same thing, closing a discussion I thought was a consensus, only to get a ton of blowback upon implementing it, so I understand how a well-meaning effort can go like this. I have a ton of respect for your work and contributions to CfD's and hope I haven't dented your enthusiasm for participating. Josh (talk) 16:15, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Also apologies, my outburst yesterday was also not directed towards Sbb1413, who certainly meant to finally close one of the oldest CfDs. It just really surprised me to read about this even happening; and I have now lodged my concerns in the re-opened debate. This also got me thinking: there should be a way to announce such consequential CfDs to a larger audience, so that nobody gets surprised (but so that nobody gets accused of vote-rallying, either). I check the pump every other week now, so here's a good place to start. --Enyavar (talk) 17:51, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
It seems to me that if one disagrees with a closure, the right thing to do is to ask a neutral admin to review it, rather then merely reopening it and restart the discussion, without adding much new and copying over other discussions. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:42, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Unfortunately, such procedure is followed mainly in Wikipedia. Since the disagreement with closure rarely occurs in Commons, we don't need such bureaucratic procedure here until such disagreement is common enough. Sbb1413 (he) (talkcontribs) 18:49, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Seems more like common(s) sense than bureaucracy. So shall we open a third discussion somewhere else? Enhancing999 (talk) 18:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
No need for it right now. If there's an option to relist the CFDs here (like Wikipedia's WP:RFD), the discussion will be better. Sbb1413 (he) (talkcontribs) 18:56, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
I'd assume everything relevant had been said and re-said.
I think someone should just assess the consensus and we can move from there. Right now it just leads to an even more prolonged mess due this reopening by the two of you. Enhancing999 (talk) 19:00, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Uploading while editing wikipedias: beneficial or problematic?

I don't know if someone had posted about the issues surrounding uploads made by uploaders while editing articles on Wikipedias. Several of these uploads are found by reviewers like me to be copyright violations (whether obvious or suspected), like stolen from the Internet or not freely-licensed images harvested from Flickr or other media repository sites (no prior checking of licensing compatibility).

Similar issue also arises for uploads that were made from other wikis ("cross-wiki uploads"). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 03:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

And also for uploads directly to Commons, no? - Jmabel ! talk 03:53, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel I'm only referring to uplpads that were made through cross-wiki or while editing Wikipedia articles. IMO, these are usually not easily detected, and many of the uploads that I see are questionable. Time to restrict cross-wiki editing to three groups only? (Only autopatrolled, image reviewers, and admins/sysops can do cross-wiki and/or while-editing-on-Wikipedia uploads.) JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:23, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Why aren't those uploads caught by the existing cross-wiki filter (153)? -- Asclepias (talk) 12:06, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't know anything about coding syntax, so forgive me for this silly question, but when a change to the cross-wiki filter added an exemption for users whose user group includes the string "confirmed", did that have the unintended effect of exempting also the users who are "autoconfirmed", thus basically nullifying the main criteria of the filter? -- Asclepias (talk) 18:43, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
 Comment @Asclepias: any user_group noted is local (not at the wiki where editing) per Special:ListGroupRights and is not based on user_rights which you can note in the second of the columns. So autoconfirmed user_group is different from confirmed user_group; also noting the "confirmed" is a specific allocated right by admins, not inherited as per autoconfirmed.  — billinghurst sDrewth 01:06, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Thank you for replying. Yes, I get that about the nature of the user groups. But my doubt was about the syntax that code the conditions of the filters. In filter 153, when the exemption condition says that accounts are exempted when the string of characters "confirmed" is found in their "user_groups", does that mean that nothing else can exist before or after strictly the nine letters "confirmed", or does that find also "autoconfirmed" because the string "confirmed" is found also in "autoconfirmed"? I'm trying to find an explanation for why uploads are not filtered when apparently they should be if the main conditions of the filter were applied. -- Asclepias (talk) 02:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Another example also by the same uploader: File:Navette arles.jpg (original is this unfree Flickr image). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 04:24, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

why are we surprised that editors make mistakes ? Have you tried teaching them ? —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 08:16, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@TheDJ mistakes may either be accidental or (as my experience in image reviewing suggests) intentional. The speedy deletion tags are enough to teach them the hard way. The prevalence of social media has made many netizens disrespect copyright rules; in the case of our country, it has been normal to not attribute original authors and instead go away with usage of "CTTO" or "credit(s) to the owner", even if authorities and scholars/media and information literacy instructors continue to remind Filipinos to refrain from using "credits to the owner" and cite / attribute sources and authors properly.
What I want to suggest, is to effectively disallow any cross-wiki or "edits-from-Wikipedias" uploading, except if the user belongs to three user groups – autopatrolled, license reviewer, and/or admin/sysop (the basis of user group should be the user group status at Commons, not on Wikipedias). This would hopefully trim down at least around a tenth (my guess) of possibly copyvio files. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 10:38, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@JWilz12345: Please see phab:T214230.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jeff G. the intention for cross-wiki uploading is good, but Wikimedia community unintentionally invited vandals and trolls to upload either out-of-scope or copyvio files seamlessly. This has resulted to numerous problematic files that needed to be reviewed and/or nuked one-by-one (image reviewing is an intense effort in which a mass deletion request could only be used as a "last-resort"). Some of these files, were only detected a year or two after upload, seemingly slipped off the supposed edit filter. In fact, I conducted some recent file reviews by finding recent WEBP images, as I can still recall the discussion at Commons:Village pump/Proposals/Archive/2023/11#Restrict webp upload. One such file I found was from a certain Alexandre071109 (talk · contribs), who uploaded numerous problematic files (in terms of copyright violations) through "upload-while-editing-Wikipedia" method.
Note that my perspective on that discussion has changed. Restricting WEBP upload does not solve things, as copyvios in PNG and JPEG file types can still be uploaded by vandals/trolls, using any easy methods in uploading. A possible viable solution is to only permit cross-wiki/"upload-while-editing-wiki" methods to experienced users. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Still one more example, uploaded a few hours ago: File:PsychoClown5.webp, "Uploaded while editing 'List of current champions in Lucha Libre AAA Worldwide' on en.wikipedia.org." Thanks @Belbury: for the speedy deletion tag. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 14:59, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Do we have any figures on how often "while editing" uploads turn out to be copyvios, compared to locally-uploaded ones? I flag a lot of copyvios in general but the connection hadn't occured to me. Belbury (talk) 15:20, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Actually I suppose the more important question is how many "while editing" uploads are useful ones. If this is a situation where 95% are copyvios or vandalism then it might be worth changing our approach to them, but we need some proper numbers on this. Belbury (talk) 22:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

One more I just tagged now: File:TELEMMGLPICT000291129217 trans NvBQzQNjv4BqsJKoeWavxz5iDO 6aHC-NNzDn6JMw4oMG9nccdeVAbM.webp, "Uploaded while editing 'Polly Walker' on en.wikipedia.org" JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 20:01, 15 June 2024 (UTC) More tagging's: files uploaded by BrainMind Diana (talk · contribs), like File:Karen-Rommelfanger.jpg (‎"Uploaded while editing 'Draft:Karen Rommelfanger' on en.wikipedia.org") and File:Buzzy picture.png ("Uploaded while editing 'Amy Baxter' on en.wikipedia.org"). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 20:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC) Still another that I just tagged: File:El Primo Skin-Default.webp, "Uploaded while editing 'Holliston, Massachusetts' on en.wikipedia.org" (but there was no intention to use it on enwiki article). JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 20:48, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

Still one more thing, sharing it here as an emphasis on the problem. File:Hack.intro.webp, "Uploaded while editing 'Babhalgaon' on en.wikipedia.org." Unused on w:en:Babhalgaon, and the uploader's intention is likely trolling or treating Commons as similar to a socmed site, since it is unreasonable to use a cybersecurity-related stock image in an article of a small Indian village of 7,000+ residents that has no connection to I.T. industry or even cybersecurity experts. No obvious relation or connection, incoherent, just used cross-wiki uploading to "play"/"troll"/"test upload" (whatever that may be). On top of that, it is a COM:NETCOPYVIO. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 21:19, 15 June 2024 (UTC)

The entire point of Commons is (or at least was at the beginning) that Wikipedia contributors can upload images to a common repository while editing. Enhancing999 (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
@Enhancing999 this just reinforces what one WMF peep observed regarding Commons (see here). In their observation, "the primary focus of the Commons community is the collecting of free content, rather than its dissemination." This may be suitable for another thread, but may be partly true after all. Worse, we are failing to curate several uploads while we are collecting free content, so copyvios are slipping through. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 15:10, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Another worthwhile question might be whether we should take more steps to identify and delete "abandoned" cross-wiki uploads, where an image was uploaded from another wiki, but where the image is no longer in use there (e.g. because the edit was reverted or the target page was deleted). My intuition is that those images are particularly likely to be out of scope and/or copyvios, and a lot of them will simply be unusable due to a lack of context. Any interest in reviewing these? Omphalographer (talk) 00:35, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

  •  Comment based on some of the recent commentary on the files that have been uploaded that should have been rejected, I have made a minor mod to the filter to slightly increase the file size to disallowed. There is probably a little more we can do to look to challenge files where they add a url within the "uploaded while editing ...".  — billinghurst sDrewth 02:26, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
    @Billinghurst that's a good move, at least to mitigate and reduce the degree of the problem. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
@Omphalographer with regards to the supposed Babhalgaon upload (an irrelevant stock image representing cybersecurity), based on enwiki article's history, the uploader – Balaji 7978 (talk · contribs) – did some irrelevant and one vandalism contributions, which were promptly reverted. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:38, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Omphalographer, after some more digging on enwiki article's history, it appeared he (yes, he) added his apparent real name on the notable people section list and claimed he is from a national cybersecurity agency from India. That now explains why his only upload here was a stock image representing cybersecurity. Possibly implicit self-promotion but his upload is a copyvio anyway. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 02:47, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

 Comment To note that the system already produces a list of successful cross-wiki-uploads => https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&tagfilter=cross-wiki-upload <= where you will be able to determine what has or has not been deleted.

Now we just need someone to divine a query that allows us to identify those files that have got the tag and are not used. And I would guess that we are looking for those that fit that criteria in the past week; alternatively works that don't have eyeball'd categorisation.  — billinghurst sDrewth 03:32, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

From [9], I would say at least 90% of these uploads are problematic. Among the last 27 uploads (10:16 to 12:03 today), only File:Bílá Třemešná, schody zbořeného zámku.jpg seems really OK, but without any category. Eight (8) are already deleted, the rest is tagged, except File:Patinoire du centre sportif La Mosane.jpg should be moved to the French Wikipedia (no FOP in France). Yann (talk) 10:17, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Assuming that people do upload to Commons to illustrate Wikipedia articles, I wonder what the percentage highlights.
  • 1. New users have a hard time doing it correctly?
  • 2. The upload workflow that is tagged as "cross-wiki-upload" is significantly worse than others?
  • 3. mostly "bad" files follow that route.
Cases #1 and #2 would need some fixing, but #3 might actually be a good thing as you wont need to search for them elsewhere.
dewiki has many lists linking to specialized upload forms and these are rarely problematic AFAIK. Enhancing999 (talk) 08:13, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
IMO, the two main reasons for which there is a high number of problematic files are: 1. there are much less requirements than through the Upload Wizard on Commons; 2. it is technically easier to upload files that way. So the probabilities for the rate of success lead to have people uploading a lot of files without much checking. Yann (talk) 08:34, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Somehow I missed the point that that a different tool is being used. It's actually quite convenient (more than most other methods) except that one needs to remove "own" claims afterwards (also I duplicated the file extension). I think I will use that going forward. Enhancing999 (talk) 09:50, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
The upload links the dewiki lists are in most cases for topics were you will not find any photo online. Therefore it is not possible to claim the work of someone else as own as these works do not exist. Additionally I think the society in Germany is much more aware on copyright regulation than in most other countries at least in Europe. To address the topic specific differences is might be useful to not allow cross-wiki upload at articles about people but allowing it for articles about geographical features. GPSLeo (talk) 09:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

RFC: Automatic categorisation both bane and gain; work needed to identify source of categorisation

Hi. Having been involved in large amounts of tidying over the years we are starting to get to an administrative burden from automatic categorisation where it is going wrong, Our use of complex and layered templates that directly apply categories, eg. Template:Topic by country, or the inhalation of categories based on Template:Wikidata infobox, or through Modules is requiring more and more time and more and more complex knowledge to resolve this (mis)categorisation where it goes wrong, or where it causes issues outside of our criteria.

We need some better technical solutions. We need a direct and overt ability to know the source of the categorisation be it:

  1. direct category in the page
  2. template that has local data
  3. template that is importing information from wikidata

Some of this sort of exists when one has Com:HotCat as a gadget, though the other two have no ready means to identify the source.

Categorisation is clearly something where automation is useful and it is not in itself the problem. When it is wrong, and needs a lot of work to resolve, then it moves from problem to big problem.

We also need a better means for getting resolution categorisation fixes of the points in #2 and #3. We need guidance to people to how they best address categorisation that has gone wrong and they don't know how to fix it. Some of that is that we need to review our documentation in the templates to ensure that they have guidance for the appropriate use of the template, and what it actually does, as well as the guidance on the appropriate use of the parameters. Template designers/creators need to be involved in that space as an expectation, and those that put them through major rewrites. If it is hard to use and hard to understand then the community needs to challenge both its design and its purpose.

If we don't do something the categorisation issues are going to continue to multiply, and the rules that we have in place will be ignored and we will just have mess. I know that I am partly just stating the problem, and not necessarily the solution, however, at this point I am looking for comments about where others think we are, and some general thoughts on how we can address this at a higher level before drilling down into all the solutions.  — billinghurst sDrewth 00:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

It's probably a side thing, but I have a serious problem with categories being forced on us through infoboxes. Like there's a ton of people who are recipients of minor, non-notable awards that automatically get sorted into categories for said awards and their various sub-awards when it's not really useful to have things categorized down to that small of a level. You can't really do anything about it on our end either. Regardless, we shouldn't have how we categorize things dictated by other projects period. We certainly don't name categories based on standards set by Wikipedia editors, or keep files that violate the guidelines simply because of how other projects do things. -Adamant1 (talk) 00:34, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikidata Infoboxes provide given name, surname, and birth and death dates, and "living people", which should presumably be uncontroversial. [Similarly, some gender info so it can do "men by name" and "women by name" as well as "people by name". - Jmabel ! talk 01:53, 9 June 2024 (UTC)] I'm not at all sure they should do any other automatic addition of categories, though there may be some others that are equally clear. I haven't really seen this thing with awards, but that may say something about what topics I work on. @Adamant1: can you give an example and (anyone) is there documentation somewhere about what categories infoboxes add? - Jmabel ! talk 01:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: I don't necessarily have an issue with infoboxes providing given name, surname, or birth and death dates. That's about it though. If you want an example of what I'm talking about checkout the subcategories in Category:Recipients of Russian military awards and decorations. Like categories for people that have won the various "X Years of Victory in the Great Patriotic War 1941–1945" medals. For instance Category:Heydar Aliyev, where there's like 30 categories for minor awards that I assume were all added by the infobox and can't be removed or edited. The whole thing is totally ridiculous overkill. --Adamant1 (talk) 01:11, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
How do we decide which military awards are notable enough for a category, though? Trade (talk) 01:42, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
The same way we decide anything else of the sort. It does seem odd for the decision to be hidden in a template. - Jmabel ! talk 01:44, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Interesting territory, and there I think that we need to take a bit of a step back. The first question has to be whether the category should exist here, prior to what and how it is populated. Only after that can we then discuss the means that we want things populated, and whether they are falling into a variation of Com:OVERCAT. I don't mind cats coming from WD data as long as it is sustainable and comparatively easy to manage and resolve. It is the deep/problematic dives that we need to resolve, either in the finding or in the fixing.  — billinghurst sDrewth 02:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
That's an excellent point by @Billinghurst. Fundamentally, we should be creating good categories and populating them in compliance with Commons category policies  first and foremost, regardless of how this is done, be it manually or using templates and other tools. I agree very strongly with @Adamant1 that some of these categorization schemes (e.g. "recipients of X award") which clearly are really about storing data points about a topic in the form of categorization are not good form, as they aren't really about categorizing media, but trivial categorization of topics, which is not the purview of Commons. Josh (talk) 15:31, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: The code is in {{Wikidata infobox}}, which should be documented on that page.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 01:36, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
But as far as I can see it is not at all documented there; not even the mechanism (buried somewhere other than the code on that page) is documented. It's not at all clear where one would look to see what properties/categories are handled this way. - Jmabel ! talk 01:48, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Template:Wikidata Infobox/core documentation mentions "awards", but doesn't indicate what Wikidata properties are involved. - Jmabel ! talk 01:51, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
I think Wikidata could be helpful for populating categories about video games, movies, television shows and animes. Adding the correct categories by hand is somewhat of an tedious process Trade (talk) 01:41, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Wikidata Infoboxes provide given name, surname, and birth and death dates, and "living people", which should presumably be uncontroversial. I'd dispute that! Broad categories like "living people" or "2000 deaths" have limited utility on Commons. There are extraordinarily few situations where they are genuinely useful as a means of locating media. Omphalographer (talk) 02:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
Bollocks. The Commons category structure has been an untenable mess for years. A large part of the problem expressly lies with editors from Wikidata and Wikipedia who bring their baggage with them and fail to understand that Commons is a separate site with its own policies. A prime example of the Wikidata side of the problem is with the "Births in" categories. These editors have actively sandbagged a clear segregation from "People of" categories, resulting in a massive clusterfuck of superfluous categorization and a failure to understand what a meta category actually is, as opposed to what they personally think a meta category should be. In the few times where Commons admins have crossed paths with me in attempting to clean up this mess, I gained the impression that those admins had zero understanding of COM:CAT. However, let's not get bogged down with examples, because the problem's a lot bigger than any example.RadioKAOS (talk) 02:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
What's the issue with editors from Wikipedia? Trade (talk) 02:20, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
@RadioKAOS: I am very comfortable with us using WD data to categorise here. My issue primarily is how we fix it when it goes askew. Our categories, our categorisation, and decision-making how we use WD data to categorise here. We will always face the issue of implementation of decisions from contributors who edit elsewhere, so the issue isn't their ideas, it is the consensus they need to reach in its implementation, instead of unilateral implementation.

So for the moment, rather than stray into the "whataboutism" it would be nice if we focus on the issue, rather than inflate to a blame game.  — billinghurst sDrewth 02:27, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

@Billinghurst: Not to point fingers at Wikipedia users, but I think it gets to one route cause of the problem, which is that it seems like people from other projects use categories as a rudimentary way to store (or display) information about a subject. Not necessarily organize media related to it. Like with the example of categories related to awards, if you look at Category:Ivan Matyukhin there's 10 categories for awards that they have received but absolutely zero images in the category having to do with them.
So the categories are just being used as rudimentary ways to store and display biographical facts about Ivan Matyukhin, not to organize media related to the awards. And again not to point fingers, but I don't think that's something regular users of Commons would do on our end. Regardless, I think the problem could largely be solved if we were clearer about (and better enforced) the idea that categories are intended to group related pages and media. Not act as shoo-ins for Wikidata data item's or something. But then we don't have the ability to do that if the categories are being automatically created and added by the infoboxes either. So... --Adamant1 (talk) 11:37, 9 June 2024 (UTC)
@Adamant1: Creation of a cat and the population of a cat are different and separate acts. For WD, they are also both happening here, not at WD, as they are in templates that we control. Someone has created the category and someone has added the code to Template:Wikidata infobox for the population to occur. The automation thereafter is due to having created the cat, and done the coding to add the cat, the population is from data at WD. If that is the issue, then can we please address that in a different thread. At this time, it is the ability to locate and identify from where the categorisation is taking place and resolving that.  — billinghurst sDrewth 01:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@Billinghurst If I understand you correctly, it seems what you are saying is that it is not the automation per se that is the problem, but instead our process of having created these kinds of categories in the first place...if Category:Ivan Matyukhin exists and the 10 'Category:Recipient of...' categories exist, we can hardly blame the automated tool for adding those presumably accurate connections, but instead it rests on us as a community to have the deeper discussion and develop a consensus on how much of this kind of categorization we should have in the first place. Am I reading you correctly? Josh (talk) 15:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@Billinghurst If I understand you correctly, it seems what you are saying is that it is not the automation per se that is the problem, but instead our process of having created these kinds of categories in the first place...if Category:Ivan Matyukhin exists and the 10 'Category:Recipient of...' categories exist, we can hardly blame the automated tool for adding those presumably accurate connections, but instead it rests on us as a community to have the deeper discussion and develop a consensus on how much of this kind of categorization we should have in the first place. Am I reading you correctly? Josh (talk) 15:41, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joshbaumgartner: My original point, is the fixing of problematic categorisation which was the primary reason for my raising the issue. These are all categories that are created by us, and the coding in the templates is by us, either through WD infobox or other Commons templates. Finding how and where to fix things is increasingly becoming difficult, and I am looking for solutions there. We need to show how it gets there, and either how to fix it, or where to request the remedy, AND we cannot be relying on individuals. [So a clear means to identify auto-populated cats, and in the documentation in the template to show it autopopulates and where.]

My second point is that we own our categories and their creation. If we allow them to exist, then auto-population is okay, though the criteria in my first point needs to be met. Point 2 cannot exist in isolation.  — billinghurst sDrewth 04:02, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I fixed a few cases when trying to work on categories stuck in Category:Non-empty category redirects. This concerned mostly categories on category pages (not files) and -- beyond the question which name to choose -- the categorization itself was rarely controversial. (There is some debate about the "old map" and "historical map" categories at Module_talk:Messtischblatt, categorization added for years).
Categories added by Template:Topic by country are actually relatively straightforward, but that template did lack documentation (somewhat improved yesterday). They can highlight problems in our category tree. Wikidata was rarely much of an issue. (I did blame it by error when a category was added with &html entities).
A search in the source text of Template: or Module: namespace usually finds the definition of a categorization. "|setscats= " in template documentation is meant to help. A general problem with categories added by templates is that everything needs to be refreshed if it's changed. Once one was identified a search with PetScan on subcategories of Category:Non-empty category redirects helped find other problematic uses. I noted some finds on User talk:RussBot/category redirect log. Enhancing999 (talk) 09:14, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
To me this is that if a template categorises other pages, then the template needs to specifically say that is its purpose, and give clear statements of what it is doing, ie. where to expect to see results. Ideally I would like to see a complete list of categories that it populates as that makes reverse finding useful. I would also like to see categories that are populated automatically also have a maintenance category that says that can be autopopulated by such and such template. Clarity is gold in these situations. If there is a master template for broad categorisation, then it should have a section for problems noted, and it should be identified for watching by numbers of people. (fixing problems early before they propagate is also gold)  — billinghurst sDrewth 04:27, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Not sure how practical that is. Potentially it could mean that one would have to edit every parent category (A of X, B of X, C of X) for each subcategory (NEW of X) instead of just a category.
Unless we find a central way to add them, this could mean that for 250 new categories one would have to edit every occurrence of several parent categories (All A of .., All B of .., All C of ..), possibly thousands. Enhancing999 (talk) 12:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks a lot @Billinghurst: for starting this RfC, I totally agree with your description of the problems that templates can create. So we need to:
  • inventorize the problems
  • give solutions, how can we address these problems.
 Agree Templates are often a great tool, for instance for the date categories and the template that is importing information from wikidata (as long as it is limited to the basic categories, like given name, surname, birth and death dates (useful to decide whether works of an artist are in PD), people/men/women by name).
But I am struggling too often with automatic categorisation by templates, and indeed Template:Topic by country is one of them (others are about photographers). Some of my problems:
  1. The template is automatically adding parent categories that do not exist for that country, while a parent of it or another alternative category does exists, and/or there are not enough files or subcategories to justify creating the red one (and it is a lot of work to create new ones over and over again, which I consider part of the "administrative burden" Billinghurst is talking about).
  2. Sometimes there is even a better child category for a country/location than the automatically added one (for instance for the photographer by location by date: the standard parent is the location, but sometimes "history of location" or even a category that groups all the photographers together for the location and/or date would be better).
  3. Some templates make use of lists or other pages that I cannot find, they might be hidden, but anyway not documented (with links) in the template.
Though it is indeed probably a side thing, I agree with Adamant1 that there are editors who create categories, just because there is a Wikidata item or an EN-WP category/page with the same name, no matter whether we need them on Commons or not. And then it is a lot of work to put that right again. That also contributes to the administrative burden.
Suggestions for solutions:
  • Before you intend to create a new template that is more complicated than a simple date template: present your proposal to the community (at least in plain English, you might of coarse also present (a part of) the proposed program), ask for comment. Same for adding automatically new parent categories by a WD template.
  • Good documentation should be a basic feature in each template, before a new one is published or in use:
    • in plain English, like functional specifications; explaining what the template does (what actions), how it does it ( mechanisms and for instance: what lists/other things/links it uses), when to use it (in what kind of categories) and how to use it (what exactly should you do to make it work). Written with people in mind who know nothing or very little of programming, but are interested in templates. This should also be checked and done for existing templates as well.
    • technically, for editors who will solve problems when the creator is not available.
  • A procedure for when a template creates trouble:
    • Where to drop the problem?
    • Who is going to solve it? Especially when the original creator is not available (or refuses to solve it, what I have experienced as well).
    • Can we remove the template and add better parent categories (and often a navigation template) instead? Without the risk that the next editor will reverse it?
JopkeB (talk) 06:39, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

 Question@Mike Peel: do you have a system-based solution for how we can readily identify the categories that are/can be populated from WD (and thinking as maintenance cats) if it isn't already. What is done at WD end, and what can be done at Commons end to be clearly overt?  — billinghurst sDrewth 00:56, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

Solution mode

So taking the next step, what exactly do we want to achieve?

Starting simple, what if anything do we want to achieve at

and without getting into the detail, where else are we looking to get information into place, or where might we need clear procedural change, or mention of expectations.  — billinghurst sDrewth 00:50, 12 June 2024 (UTC)

It looks like the guidelines are roughly speaking OK, perhaps just some additions. The main issues might be applying and enforcement. JopkeB (talk) 07:42, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
For applying these policies, this can be done manually or automatically. To support manual application, the best tools are well-written and easily-accessible guidelines for editors of all levels on how to do so correctly and efficiently. For automated application, good tools, such as templates, are needed. These tools should allow for manual override (e.g. a nocat parameter to suppress automated categorization on a given application) where applicable. Documentation should make it clear to users how to use these options.
For enforcement, which I see basically as maintenance, automation is valuable in the form of good monitoring tools, such as automated flags for cases that are outside of the guidelines and spotting areas of inconsistent category organization and naming. However, actually addressing these situations is incumbent on human editors to do. As for the term 'enforcement', I associate that more with the involvement of authority, such as admin action to stop abuse or dealing with intentional disruption, while 'maintenance' doesn't necessarily imply that previous editors did anything wrong per se, but just that we are continuing to evolve and improve our categorization and so forth.
Ultimately, human editors are the key to successful categorization. Templates and other tools can be used by them to help increase their efficiency, but it is up to the human to ensure those tools are correctly applied. For example, applying a template and then saying that the categorization must be adhered to because that is what the template added is not appropriate. Thus the guidelines should focus on ensuring editors understand what the end goal is of categorization and provide them with tools on how to get there, with or without templates and gadgets. I would certainly like to start looking at some specific language being proposed for the above policies to get to the meat of the matter. Josh (talk) 14:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Undoubtfully tools can play a role. But I think step one is to convince people who create (and/or adjust) templates, that creating(/adjusting) a template is only half of the job. The other half consists of creating(/adjusting) good documentation (and testing according to a test plan). JopkeB (talk) 11:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Updating Commons:Templates and Commons:Template documentation is certainly a good idea. Both of these have relatively little and out-of-date information, so both lack utility in their current guise. The implications of what is changed are significant however, with a great potential for unintended consequences, so new wording should be first proposed with significant input solicited before any actual adoption of a new and revamped template policy is published. I think it is an effort worth doing, however, and look forward to participating. Josh (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
On the Wikidata side, if we are going to allow any element of Commons categorization to be controlled by Wikidata properties, then there has to be a clear rule set agreed to on the WD side for each of those controlling properties to ensure that changes on the WD side do not adversely damage our categorization scheme here. For example, existing properties such as 'instance of' and 'subclass of' are probably are unworkable, as the WD scheme for these is well established but quite different for Commons categorization in many ways. Perhaps a new set of properties will need to be thought out and proposed on WD specifically to support Commons categorization. This could all be very useful, and a cross-project collaboration effort which brings both Commons and WD minds together may well be able to work out some good tools for this. Josh (talk) 14:30, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Commons:The Commoner

Apparently, we had some publication similar to w:en:Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost: Commons:The Commoner. JWilz12345 (Talk|Contrib's.) 15:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Subpages for documentation in category namespace

Sample:

Is this usual in this wiki? Similar to templates with subpages, I found a few abandoned, bot-created pages by a retired user and listed them at Commons:Categories for discussion/2024/06/Category:GLAM dashboard reports. A user there asserts that it's correct to create such subpages, but I'm not aware of any other wikis doing that and the end up coming up in searches for categories elsewhere. Enhancing999 (talk) 17:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Supersede images : what to do with old page ?

Category clean up : Category:Files supported by Wikimedia France - Elix - obsolete supersede by Category:Files supported by Wikimedia France - Elix.

As part of a Wikimedia France project on sign languages I uploaded better files for a whole category of 100 files and I have the authorisation to remove the old files. I see Wikidata uses these files 83 times (see https://glamtools.toolforge.org/glamorous.php ). I would like wikimedia projects to migrate to the new .webm files, and delete the old .ogv files. How should I proceed ?

  • ✓ Done Upload new *.webm files, who provide better online support, see https://caniuse.com/ogv vs https://caniuse.com/webm.
  • ✓ Done Added {Superseded2|NewFile.webm} to all old files
  • ✓ Done Edited the specialized {{Elix}} template to create distinct categories
  • ✓ Done Update Wikidata 83 items (by hand).

As fore migration then deletion of the obsolete, what should I do ?

  1. Delete obsolete files from Commons ? Replace by a #REDIRECT [[:file:newfile]] ? How ? (here)

Yug (talk) 17:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Just link the new format from the file description page of current format. ("other versions") Enhancing999 (talk) 17:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Done: I added the `other_versions` value to the {tl|Elix}} template. Maybe it will help bots to detect those pages, remove them, and put a Redirect in place. Yug (talk) 18:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Is this category for flags that are fictional? Or is it for flags for countries featured in creative works? There is no way to infer this from the category name alone Trade (talk) 22:21, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

As I've interpreted it, it's both - they're flags which are fictional, and which have appeared in fictional works. I'm not sure how you'd have one without the other. Omphalographer (talk) 05:00, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Also note: We're keeping flags from notable works of fiction there. Files that are just about personal fiction (look at the awesome symbols of the micronation my roleplaying group founded yesterday) should get deleted as soon as possible. And see also the Category:Fictional flags of historical entities (to be replaced and deleted), now that category name should speak for itself. --Enyavar (talk) 07:47, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
Right, so we are we showing both type of flags into the exact same category? This is just a mess to keep track of Trade (talk) 18:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
What do you mean by "both types"? As far as I'm aware, there is (or should be) only one type of image in this category - depictions of flags which stem from fictional works, and which represent countries which only exist within those works of fiction. A typical example would be File:Gilead-Flag.gif, the flag of the fictional country of Gilead from The Handmaid's Tale. Omphalographer (talk) 18:31, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
There is nothing in the category nor it's name to indicate that only flags from creative works should be features. Trade (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2024 (UTC)
I could be totally off base here but I've done some work in the area and I think at least some of the problem is the ambiguity of the parent categories and how the whole thing is structured going up from there. For instance the category has both Category:Flags in fiction and Category:Special or fictional flags as parents. But then Category:Special or fictional flags is also a parent of Category:Flags in fiction. So it's just circular. Plus the Wikidata entry for Category:Special or fictional flags appears to be about "unofficial flag", which really has nothing to with fictional flags to begin with. Regardless, it seems like this combines "special", "fictional", and "unofficial" flags into the same category and does it in a way were the categories are just circular. We should just pick a term, go with it, and make the parents categories actually lead somewhere meaningful. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:06, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
How about "Flags of countries from creative works"? This could then be a subcategory of "Flags from creative works", with it being a subcategory of "Symbols from creative works" Trade (talk) 21:57, 13 June 2024 (UTC)
I think not. That could as easily mean fictional flags of real countries as flags of fictional countries. - Jmabel ! talk 01:10, 14 June 2024 (UTC)
Fictional flag does not equal Flag from creative work Trade (talk) 14:00, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
The current name applies the adjective 'fictional' to the country, not the flag, which indicates that a fictional flag of a real country would not apply here. A fictional country is one from a fictional work (our scope would limit this further to notable fictional works), so any flag that is used by such a country would go here. However, renaming this category to "Flags of countries from creative work" could be interpreted either in the exact same way (expression: "(flags) of (countries from creative works)") or as Jmabel does as fictional flags of real countries (expression: "(flags of countries) from (creative works)") which is always a possibility when using a double-prepositional phrase. Thus I think the current category name is more clear. Josh (talk) 13:47, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
At this point Commons have hundreds if not more than a thousand fictional flags while flags from creative works makes up less than a hundred files. One is very clearly an issue, the other is not. Trade (talk) 14:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@Adamant1, Category:Special or fictional flags is a complete violation of the Selectivity Principle  and Simplicity Principle . A special flag (presumably described by the linked WD item as a privately used, unofficial flag) is very different from a fictional flag. The former is very much a real flag, while the latter is patently not real. Since these alone are two different topics, they should be two distinct categories, not to mention any other hodge podge that is currently in this category. As for the names, "special flags" is a horrible category name, as 'special' is way to broad of a concept. We should focus on what the flags represent (and hence whether they fit in our scope), so 'flags of countries', 'flags of social movements', 'flags of companies', 'flags of individual people', etc. are all potentially good concepts for categories. I would say the the OP category 'flags of fictional countries' also is fine as a concept for this reason. Josh (talk) 14:02, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
As far as i can tell "special flag" is just an euphemism for any flag that isn't a nation flag Trade (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

@Omphalographer: way back on your 05:00, 11 June 2024 remark about "I'm not sure how you'd have one without the other," it seems to me that most micronations are "fictional countries" without necessarily involving any fictional creative work. I don't think there is any escaping needing an explanatory headnote for any name we might come up with in this terrain. - Jmabel ! talk 19:17, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I think there is a meaningful distinction we can make between flags which are generally acknowledged as artifacts of fictional works (e.g. flags from books, movies, video games, etc) and flags which were created to be used in the real world to represent some entity, even if it's an entity of dubious existence like a micronation. Omphalographer (talk) 20:31, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
How do we name the two categories in a way that makes the distinction blatant? Trade (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

How to find the source cat for why a given image is in a specific category tree?

I'd like to find out why the files shown in this petscan like File:Life expectancy in Albania.svg are somewhere in the category tree of Category:Maps of the world. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:16, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

Probably because first Category:Demographics of the European Union is falsely in the category tree of Category:Maps of the European Union, and second Category:Maps of Afro-Eurasia is falsely in Category:Maps of the world indicating regions?
Just correct it, it is nothing new that sometimes editors make bad categorization choices in good faith. --Enyavar (talk) 12:37, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Just correct it that requires me, and for other cases many other editors, to be able to quickly and easily see what the source of the category is. Hence my question.
(And I went through the cat tree but didn't check Demographics of the European Union somewhere in the branches above it and don't know how you found it). Prototyperspective (talk) 12:55, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Right, you were hoping for a method there. I admit, I just randomly went up the tree from the in-file-categories to see which upwards category was most likely to lead towards "maps of the world". --Enyavar (talk) 13:09, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Example (this is already part of the FastCCI gadget)
Yes and I was looking for a method that it isn't manually going through all the category's cats' cats etc but quick reliable technical method. I found such a way today but I'm looking for something that does just that: the FastCCI tool can load all quality images anywhere in branch of a given category and when clicking on any item of it, it loads how the file is placed in it – see the screenshot. It's just this feature that I'd like to use on a given file, eg by entering the file's url into an additional searchbox shown on the category page or anything else. Prototyperspective (talk) 15:48, 16 June 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps the problem is that there aren't really clearly-defined 'source cats' (or more commonly referred to as a 'main category' or 'main topic') for topics in the category tree. We even have a maincat tag that has been added to some, but still no real agreement on what exactly makes one exact category a main category vs. any other. We have parent categories and sub-categories, but any category could conceivably be considered a main cat for all of its child tree, depending on the perspective of a given user. The reality is that categories are not exactly class-subclass or set-subset relationships. They may resemble that in many cases, but they are not limited to that. Categories are really not even trees so much as webs, so it as desirable as it might be to have a 'source cat' with some kind of defined 'tree' of sub-cat branches under it, that just isn't how categories ultimately are structured, and your example shows a lot of the reasons why.
Your example File:Krettnach Wegekreuz L138.jpg at the right illustrates the problem with rooting the category tree. It seems to present a singular linear path of categorization. The image in question is in 15 categories directly, but this tool only picks 1 to navigate up through. That makes sense as this tool is focused on quality images but even then this file is in 4 quality image categories...it picked 1. The same pick-one problem recurs at each level, leading to essentially a random category navigation exercise to a certain level. Josh (talk) 16:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
The main category/ies subject is certainly interesting but it's pretty much unrelated to this topic: this is about finding why a specific image is located in a specific category (such as the example file somewhere underneath "Maps of the world").
Yes, that's a good point but still not really what this topic is about: that one can check the source of categorization for a file (its category path) doesn't mean that it will or needs to be altered just if it doesn't seem to be right. For example, the "Maps of the world" cat contains a "Category:Maps of the world in art" that contains a lot of files one wouldn't expect to find anywhere underneath "Maps of the world". When one sees that it's just included due to the recurring standardized "xyz in art" subcategory, it won't need to be removed. It would be useful if for example tools/views that show files from many subcategories of a category like FastCCI could distinguish between several kinds of subcategories to e.g. exclude certain ones or give the user the option to do so but that's not what this is about and just something that could follow up on this.
If there are multiple paths a file included it should show each of these. Prototyperspective (talk) 20:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
This gets back to something I had wanted to pursue when we first introduced SDC, but most of the people pushing SDC were more or less antagonistic to categories, so they weren't interested in integrating the two well. Little by little some of this has made its way into Wikidata regardless, but not in a way that is particularly useful to us, because when it made its way into Wikidata, Commons' needs weren't particularly considered. In particular, distinctions in Wikidata like "subclass of" vs. "instance of" vs. "location" as a relation between items are all at one remove from categories, which are at best related to their parents (or, more precisely, to their parents' "main topics") with "category combines topics". It might yet be possible to piece this all back together and use structured data (I would hope in Wikidata rather than SDC, but I'd settle for either) to express the nature of each case of category inheritance. - Jmabel ! talk 18:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I think SDC can only ever be useful if it gets synced with categories and changed whenever categories are changed. For most files SDC are missing and easily half of those have them have flawed and/or very incomplete data in there, the data is a bit hidden and little cared about so people don't notice if there's false or vandalizing data. An example issue is that "depicting" something is different from a file having something as a subject. Lastly, I don't think SDC for WMC files has any use at this point whatsoever so is just a time-drain that could and would better be populated by bots/scripts only that largely use well-maintained categories if at all since it mostly just duplicates metadata & maintenance. Not even Wikidata is well-maintained, for example the items for subjects as fundamental and large-order as "Past", "Present", and "Future" were heavily flawed before I fixed them and categories and their contents should and could be as query-able as Wikidata items (example where they're not: one can't do a petscan and then run WMC category operations on all the files in the results). Most studies are also not in Wikidata, just an arbitrary 1% or so subset of them and queries for such as Scholia does them for charts about studies on a given research topic etc or by a specific author are not useful at this point either. Often there is data in categories not in fields that make WDInfoboxes auto-set categories and these infoboxes cause UI issues (reduce columns). Manually (really in 2024?) translated captions are frequently moved to other languages by vandals. WD item data could be useful to make the relation between categories more explicit, often they are phrased in a way that explains the relation but it could be more explicit.
I was thinking about how to make these more useful and maybe I can concretize some proposal soon. This also related to this question here as a tool that shows cat-paths for files could be useful for eliminating miscategorizations better enabling the categories to be used by bots/scripts that populate structure data / Wikidata based on them.
As for the issue of showing why a file is in a cat I've asked about it at Talk:FastCCI in case somebody could use its code for that. Prototyperspective (talk) 14:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

I started this gallery in my user space. Before I move it to the public space (ideally a more comprehensive version), I would like to make sure that such a gallery complies with what is considered acceptable in this project. Otherwise I would gladly leave it where it is. There is not corresponding category after all. But from the reader's point of view, I see multiple practical purposes of such a gallery, for example can it serve as an aid to identify species that they have seen in a garden. Stilfehler (talk) 16:57, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Perfectly acceptable gallery. - Jmabel ! talk 18:33, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks! Stilfehler (talk) 18:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Incorrect use of "Extracted from" template?

Is it correct to use the "Extracted from" template for images that are merely filtered and aren't a crop or "extracted" in any meaningful way? (And if it *is* okay, what's the difference between that and *any* derivative image?)

I ask because I notice that one of my uploads- File:William Hartnell, 1950 (halftone filtered).jpg, a filtered version of an existing image which I'd marked as a "derivative" image was converted to "extracted" by Mewhen123 (talk · contribs).

I reverted the changes and explained why at the user's talk page.

I didn't receive a reponse, but some time *after* this, they did the same thing to another upload I'd made regardless.

Since I didn't receive a response or any form of engagement the first time round, I figured it would be more productive to ask here whether or not this was okay or not? Ubcule (talk) 19:03, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The template documentation of "extracted from" explicitly says that it is for cropped images. However, the two examples are probably not derivative works either in the sense of Commons:Derivative works (you do not seem to be claiming to have added distinctly copyrightable content). They are probably simply "retouched pictures". -- Asclepias (talk) 19:27, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@Asclepias: - Okay, so we're both agreed that the use of "extracted from" for such images is misleading and incorrect regardless.
However, if you feel that Template:Derived from is inappropriate for indicating the source and/or "other versions" in the information box, which should be used instead? Ubcule (talk) 21:02, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Probably just cross-link with {{Other version}}. - Jmabel ! talk 21:42, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Sometimes a source is just a source. IMO, the simple normal link in the source field does just fine. Optionally, a thumbnail can be displayed in the other versions field (with or without particular format). -- Asclepias (talk) 21:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel and Asclepias: - The problem with {{Other version}} is that it doesn't make clear which is the original or "parent" version. Particularly if I'm uploading a modified version of an existing image, I like to be clear that mine is the "derivative" version (in the more general sense) and to be able to make that relationship obvious in a manner that's clear and consistent for both users and automated processing.
Ditto simply displaying a thumbnail in the "other versions" field- it has no semantic meaning.
@Asclepias: - I honestly haven't come across anyone complaining about my use of {{Derived from}} until now, and I've been editing here for a long time. I'm still not 100% convinced that "derivative" in this sense *was* necessarily required to include/imply "distinctly copyrightable" input?
The fact that there isn't a template more specific to the case I described suggests otherwise. Ubcule (talk) 22:31, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
{{Other version}} allows a freeform comment to explain the relationship. But I have no problem with {{Derived from}} here. {{Other version}} is certainly the one to use when discussing (for example) different prints from the same negative. - Jmabel ! talk 23:39, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Note that freeform also means "unrecognisable relation between things to computer systems". —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 07:33, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Merely reminding that the documentation of the template "Derived from" says that it is specifically for derivative works, which has a precise meaning legally and in the Commons official guideline on the matter. If you want to use the template in a broader sense than what that says, do what you want. But then you could hardly complain when Mewhen123 uses the template "Extracted from" in a broader sense than what it says. -- Asclepias (talk) 00:39, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
There's also {{Retouched picture}} which allows you to indicate a different Commons image as the original that you retouched. - Jmabel ! talk 02:56, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
This is a better choice I feel. —TheDJ (talkcontribs) 07:33, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel and TheDJ: - Apparently you are technically correct that- by its own definition- the Commons' {{Retouched picture}} template covers anything "which [..] has been digitally altered from its original version". By that definition, this would count anything up to and including even (e.g.) a re-saved JPEG with no visible difference as "retouched"(!)
Regardless, I suspect that the majority of people would take "retouched" to mean an image which had undergone more serious and active modification of the fundamental content itself beyond (e.g.) trivial brightness, contrast, colour balance tweaks etc., even if that wasn't actually the case (Note this redirect on English Wikipedia).
You'll understand why I might feel this to be misleading, whether or not it falls within Common's (own) definition.
Regardless, it seems odd- and frustrating- then that we don't at least have a proper "most general case" root template to indicate that one file is based or derived (in the more general sense) another "parent" image and nothing more than that.
And, as TheDJ already indicated above, hacking such information non-systematically into "freeform" fields is no use to to automated systems, Wikipedia's included. Ubcule (talk) 13:47, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Category:Engraved illustrations from Iconographic Encyclopedia of Science, Literature and Art, Published in 1851

Why are all images in Category:Engraved illustrations from Iconographic Encyclopedia of Science, Literature and Art, Published in 1851 labeled with "Illustration from Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary (1890—1907)" and, therefore, with wrong date and copyright templates? As I see, all of them are indeed from Iconographic Encyclopedia... published by Rudolph Garrigue, New York, 1851-1852, see here: [10]. Who can check this and correct if needed? AndyVolykhov (talk) 12:01, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Notifying Butko. -- Asclepias (talk) 13:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Похоже, была ошибка атрибуции в источнике, который использовался при загрузке. Наверное, был образ диска, где эти иллюстрации були смешаны с иллюстрациями из ЭСБЕ. Нужно ботом описания исправить. Займусь задачей, только нужно сначала сверить действительно ли все ли они из Iconographic Encyclopedia --Butko (talk) 15:34, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
Возможно, путаница связана с тем, что Брокгауз немецкую версию этой иллюстрированной энциклопедии Bilder-Atlas zum Conversations-Lexicon. Ikonographische Encyklopädie der Wissenschaften und Künste издавал, даже чуть раньше, чем Гарриг в NY, но не в России и не в 1907 году, а в Лейпциге в 1849-м. Правда, я не вижу пока иллюстрированной версии немецкого издания, чтобы можно было сравнить и понять, откуда в точности картинки происходят. Возможно, если исходный диск брокгаузовский, то всё оттуда. AndyVolykhov (talk) 16:13, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Approval for PDF

Need approval for uploading Venn diagram PDF, which is useful for teachers. UDAYA ADHAN (talk) 12:44, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

You will be able to upload PDF files when your account is automatically confirmed. Please wait a few days and try then again, it’s simple as that. --Geohakkeri (talk) 15:17, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

Intersection categories

I would appreciate additional opinions on a disagreement I am having with User:AnRo0002 (see User talk:AnRo0002#Intersection categories for the discussion so far). They have been creating a number of very specific time-based intersection categories such as Category:Snow in Massachusetts in February 2012, Category:October 2016 in bus transport in Massachusetts, and Category:April 2014 in rail transport in Massachusetts. I believe these categories are not useful - they provide no benefit to users, while making them sort through more subcategories to find files, and require additional editor work to categorize files. From what I have seen, the consensus at noticeboards and CfDs has generally been against the creation of highly specific intersection categories. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 02:55, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Reminds me of the Steamboat Willie deletions. Enhancing999 (talk) 07:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
@Pi.1415926535: How about Category:September 11, 2001 in New York or Category:September 2001 in Manhattan as a subcat of Category:September 2001 in New York?   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 13:12, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
See Category:New York City photographs taken on 2001-09-11 and Category:September 2001 in Manhattan, New York City, which are both two years old. Breaking out New York City photographs by day is two years old according to {{New York City photographs taken on navbox}}. Category:September 2001 in New York (state) is seven years old. I believe the effort to subcategorize Manhattan (and other borough) media by month began before the pandemic. One Wikimedia Foundation trustee uploads New York City images by the hundreds when he attends a board meeting every year--see Category:March 2023 in Manhattan, New York City and Category:March 2024 in Manhattan, New York City, for example. Some NYC subway and bus fans upload images by the score each month as well. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 15:53, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Those seem like a bit of a special case. Those categories are less of an intersection by date, more photos of an event which is known primarily by its date. I would hesitate to generalize from there. Omphalographer (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
You're ignoring Category:March 2023 in Manhattan, New York City and Category:March 2024 in Manhattan, New York City, the latter of which contain photographs of quite possibly every last meteorite in the American Museum of Natural History as well as every nook and cranny in Riverside Park (Manhattan). Then there's the hundreds-to-thousands of photographs taken each year by an obsessive contributor in Category:New York City Subway photographs by Tdorante10--each one of those is categorized a month-specific "New York City Subway in MMM YYYY" category. You can pretend that the problem is one of overly-specific categorization, but really the root cause is an increasing number of contributors who like to upload images by the hundreds or thousands that depict the same subject over and over and over and over. That is what drives the quantity and therefore specificity of categories. Want an image of a bus in Midtown Manhattan? Well, then select one of the 754 in Category:Buses in Midtown Manhattan or one of scores more in any of its 10 subcategories. -- DanielPenfield (talk) 04:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Having complete coverage of useful subjects is generally a good thing - that's why we have GLAM collaborations. While there is a need to avoid actual duplicates (and yes, a few uploaders need to be reminded of that fact), I don't think that's the main factor behind the increasing number of questionable categories. A great many subjects are extremely complex and will rightfully have a large number of files; our category system should be designed to allow users to navigate those files efficiently.
The key issues to me are:
  • How do we decide which intersection categories are useful and which are not (the reason I started this discussion)
  • What tools need to be created to enhance the category system and have it adequately serve the 100+ million files on Commons, and
  • For tools that are beyond the resources of Commons volunteers to create and maintain, how do we get the WMF to prioritize making them?
Without steering the discussion too far away from that first point, there seems to be general agreement that we need the ability to arbitrarily subdivide a category by certain parameters. In particular, we need a tool that can allow you to find all files in a category (or category tree) within a selected date range - and have it be available on the category pages as well as in the search function. This would eliminate a large swath of intersection categories - in particular, the ones that require the most labor to populate and provide the least benefit. Division by date, file type, resolution, and license could all be done with existing structured data; it would provide a great deal of functionality without getting into any areas likely to be controversial. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 06:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@Pi.1415926535 As to your 3 questions:
  1. The question of intersection categories is a constant one on COM:CFD. Essentially, nearly every topic category is an intersection category. Thus I don't think how we treat discussions on intersection categories is really that different from how we approach topic categories in general. There are sometimes calls to arbitrarily limit the amount of sub-categorization of a topic (essentially a process of intersecting categories), but these rarely gain consensus as it usually involves unintended consequences and lots of exceptions. Essentially, the basics are that there ought to be enough media to support an intersection category, that the intersection be sufficiently distinguishable to make a distinct category, and there it offer some meaningful sub-division of its parent categories. If any of these are in question, the issue is raised and discussed at COM:CFD (or other appropriate forum) and consensus for that particular use case is implemented. Basically, if a user creates a category, so long as it does not violate Commons category policies , until there is a consensus that it is not useful, it is presumed useful and kept.
  2. As for tools we need, better and more accessible search tools that obviate the need to use categories as search criteria would be high on my wish list. There are some good SPARQL query tools and gadgets that are helpful for those users with the initiative to learn and apply them, but they are not available to the mainstream and most users I would presume are not interested in learning to code just to view the media they are looking for. User-friendly interfaces built directly into the Commons interface (not requiring opt-in gadgets or third-party sites) are a must to make these useful for more than a small group of users.
  3. Clearly, involvement beyond volunteer contributors will be needed for at least some of these tools, and I have absolutely no clue how to push that cart. I'm not politically minded, nor am I steeped in the inner circle workings of the project, so I wouldn't even know how to start such a drive, but I'll gladly sign on to voice support for valuable tools. I added my name to several items on the wishlist a while ago...not sure if that did anything.
While I continue to look forward to better tools and development in the future and am eager to see how we can use them to best effect, I have been doing Wiki projects since 2005 and the idea that we shouldn't worry about making current systems work since there is a new tool just around the corner that will solve all problems is a song I have heard for going on 20 years now and one that all too rarely fails to deliver on the promises. Thus, my approach is to make the system we have now work as well as possible, and here that means making sure the categorization system provides the most robust and accessible system possible for finding media. I'll be pleased the day search tools obviate the need for it, but until that is shown to be true, I will be opposed to any attempt to limit categorization on the promise that search tools are the answer. Josh (talk) 17:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Subcategories shouldn't be created simply because a category had a large number of files in it. If there are a lot of images related to something, that is what it is; we don't need to introduce artificial distinctions just to make categories smaller. Time-based category intersections in particular seem to have little value unless they're categorizing something which changes over time in a way that's significant to the topic. Photos of a person, perhaps (although breaking it down by month would still be excessive); photos of generic topics like weather, not so much. Omphalographer (talk) 15:01, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Those categories definitely need to be deleted. I'm not sure there's much point in having a discussion here. Please nominate them for deletion at Commons:Categories for discussion. Nosferattus (talk) 15:28, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
@Nosferattus: I will take them to CfD, but there's little point in doing so until AnRo stops creating them. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Chronological categorization seems to be coming under increased scrutiny lately. As the number of hosted files continues to grow and topical categories get larger, there seems to be increasing efforts to diffuse topics by date, and by increasingly precise dates at that. Beside appearing to be a benign effort to diffuse bloated topic categories, there can be specific technical value to categorization by specific date for maintenance, curation, and some specific research efforts. However, the unintended consequence is that topic files become buried in layers of date-based categorization, frustrating most users looking for images of that topic who are not concerned with exactly when the image is of. I think it is fair to conclude that the vast majority of users looking for images of snow in Massachusetts do not care if happens to be January or February of 2012, or if it is February of 2012 or 2013. Maybe one might want to focus on more recent times vs. pictures of yore, and some may indeed be interested in January vs. February for seasonal differences (not caring which exact year), but most don't probably care about the exact year even, much less month or day. Requiring them to select one particular moment in time to see images is very frustrating for most. This also makes normal diffusion more difficult, as files moved to specific dates are less likely to correctly get diffused to more appropriate sub-categories (e.g. a pic already moved to Snow in Massachusetts in February 2012 is less likely to ever be correctly be put into Snow in Boston as it no longer appears directly under Snow in Massachusetts).
The solution to this dilemma would be one where the files are available in the main topic category for users to look through without requiring they select a specific date to be limited to, while also permitting the images to be collated by date to whatever level of specificity is meaningful for the topic. We have the same issue with categorization by media type. Most users are not looking for images of a precise type to limit their browsing to, but such categorization does have a lot of technical value to specific users. What we have done is make the Category:Media types tree separate from the Category:Topics tree. Files can be added to the Category:Media types tree and be diffused to whatever exact media type specification they fit, however, they are not to be removed from the Category:Topics tree (i.e. the main topic categories for the file). The Category:Media types categories are to be "__HIDDEN__" which puts them in a separate list of categories (only visible to users who elect to see non-topical categories).
We could adopt this approach for date-based categorization, creating Category:Chronological categories as a separate non-topical tree. This would allow continued categorization by specific date without diffusing topical categories. For example, in the case of Massachusetts snow, all files regardless of date would be present under Category:Snow in Massachusetts, a topical (visible) category. The files themselves can be additionally categorized by date under Chronological categories to whatever level of precision those involved feel is warranted. They could be accessed from the main category via Snow in Massachusetts by period which would still appear under the main category for all users. Josh (talk) 17:44, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
Is there a reason specific dates can't be off loaded to structured data? I think that would be a better way to do things since we are already having issues with the amount of needless categories in general. Really most categories could, and probably should, be off loaded to structured data at this point. --Adamant1 (talk) 19:54, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
To query for images from a certain date, just use inception date (wdt:P571) in a structured data query at https://commons-query.wikimedia.org/. We need to stop treating categories like a query language. They are ill-suited for that purpose. And if using structured data queries is too difficult, we should get the WMF to add more capabilities to Special:MediaSearch, for example, filtering by date. Nosferattus (talk) 20:48, 17 June 2024 (UTC)
@Nosferattus, structured queries are great, and you are right that categories are not queries! Unfortunately, requiring users to have SPARQL knowledge in order to search for files is, I fear, a bridge too far. We need tools to bridge that gap and bring query functionality to a broader user base before we can point to that as the answer to the problem. Josh (talk) 16:08, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@Adamant1 That is absolutely the way it should be done, but right now the structured data just isn't there yet to make this an accessible option for a lot of users and use cases. I'm all for moving that forward. In the meantime, this issue will persist. Josh (talk) 16:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
  • My general opinion: If there are enough files to create a new category: do so. Otherwise it is only annoying. For this specific case: I think that it is OK to have subcategories with more than ± 10 files, like Category:May 2014 in rail transport in Massachusetts‎ (23 files), but not for Category:Snow in Massachusetts in February 2012 (1 file).
    • I do think date categories are useful, especially when you are looking for other photographs taken on a certain date or month of the same subject and either harmonize their categories or create a new category, or to check whether a photo can indeed be taken on a certain day (if there is snow on the other photos instead of rain or blue sky, you know that something is wrong).
    • I disagree with Omphalographer that subcategories shouldn't be created simply because a category has a large number of files in it. If a topic category has more than 200 files, it should be broken down into subcategories to keep a good overview. Those new subcategories should preferably be topic categories, not date categories. Exceptions might be longlists and subjects like all the pages of a book.
    • I agree with Josh that files in date categories should also be available/stay in topic categories, for the reasons he mentions.
    • I agree with Pi.1415926535 that we need a tool that can allow you to find all files in a category (or category tree) within a selected date range.
    • See also Commons:Requests for comment/Categories of photographs by country by date, where (among other things) is discussed to which level of a country the diffusion would be allowed.
--JopkeB (talk) 09:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB: We have a tool that allows you to find whatever you want without abusing catagories. Want to see all the photographs of snow taken on January 1, 2009? Here you go: https://w.wiki/ARP$. Just click the Run button. Frankly though, I think the use case of needing to find images of a certain subject at a certain location on a certain date is entirely made up. Who has ever actually needed this? I certainly haven't. And if we're going to diffuse by location and date, why stop there? We could also diffuse by file type, license, aspect ratio, color vs. black and white, photographer, etc. The point is, categories are a poor substitute for search queries and are not what they were designed for. But when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. Fortunately, we now have other tools, so we don't have to keep abusing categories. And if writing queries is intimidating, just ask Magnus or the WMF to create whatever type of search interface you want. The data is there. We don't need categories to redundantly encode it. Nosferattus (talk) 14:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@Nosferattus, we do diffuse by many of the things you list, such as photographer, color, file type, and a hundred other criteria, depending on the topic. Scoffing at those who aren't prepared to create SPARQL queries to view what they need is not the answer. Also, no, the structured data is not all there yet, so queries are rarely complete. In theory you are not wrong...in fact a good enough database with a good enough search interface may make categories completely obsolete. We aren't there on either the data or the interface yet. If it is as easy as you claim it is, then go forward, get WMF to create the interface and demonstrate how the average user can easily use it in lieu of category browsing and maybe then you will have a valid argument to not use categories. Until then, we need categories to work for the broad user base that continues to need them. Josh (talk) 16:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
You do have a good point that the data and interface are not complete. However, in my opinion, they are a lot more usable than our terrible category system which is only getting less and less useful by the day, mainly due to over-diffusion. Nosferattus (talk) 17:02, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@Nosferattus And I agree that over-diffusion is a serious issue. This is why I've floated the idea, at least in the case of the date diffusion, to remove that from the topic category tree and make it a separate tree, leaving the files undiffused in the original topic category. I see search tools as a valuable adjunct to this, in fact. I am not personally well versed in our third-party interfaces, but I would like to build a template (or bit to include in existing templates) that invokes a search to identify any files in a non-topical category that are not still present in the related topic category. This would permit easier maintenance reversing incorrect removals from the topic category. Josh (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks, @Nosferattus: for the link. But I am one of those for who aquiring "SPARQL knowledge in order to search for files is ... a bridge too far." as Josh says. And I agree with him that this tool only show files with the correct structured data, what is not good enough for me. JopkeB (talk) 09:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB, as you can probably guess, I'm in agreement of most of what you've written here as many of these ideas are things that have come op in CfDs and other forums we've participated in. I am not a fan of placing hard arbitrary lower or upper limits on category size because I find topics and structures where very large or small categories do make sense within the scope of the topic and the available media. Of course, truly bloated categories do need to be diffused into meaningful sub-categorization, preferably by multiple different criteria. They don't even necessarily need to get to 200 files to warrant this in many cases. I do see you accept some exceptions though, which is good. One issue is stating 'subcategories should preferably be topic categories, not date categories.' I think I get what you are trying to say and I agree, but the root of this discussion is based on the fact that 'date categories' are 'topic categories' at the moment, at least structurally. The main effect of this is that, per COM:OVERCAT it is in fact required to remove a file from the main topic category when adding it to a date category. This is why I'm floating the idea of breaking date cats away from the topic tree and making them their own tree, akin to media type cats, thus reversing that requirement and making it a requirement to keep the media in the topic cat when adding it to a date cat. Josh (talk) 16:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I support the idea of making date categories non-diffusing, although my first choice would be to just delete them all. Nosferattus (talk) 17:09, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I'm not a big user of date categories, though I've had to work on several of them as part of being a broad-based maintainer. Commons doesn't have an exact analogue to Enwiki's non-diffusing categories, but we do have major category trees (see major category policy ) which are similar in effect, in that categories under one major category do not diffuse categories in another major category (e.g. a file in a Media types category does not diffuse from the related Topics category; the file should exist separately in both). This is why I presented the idea of creating Category:Chronological categories as a major category and making all 'by date' categories fall under this, prohibiting diffusion of the original topic category. I understand that nuking date categories would be your first choice, but appreciate your understanding that at least making them non-diffusing is an improvement that should be made if they are to be retained. Josh (talk) 17:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I also support this idea. Whether we ultimately keep these date-based subcategories or not, infusing their contents back into parent categories is a clear step in the right direction. Omphalographer (talk) 17:21, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Support the idea in absence of a better option like moving dates to structured data. The whole thing just seems circular though. We don't fully embrace SDC. So it's not properly implemented, naturally leading to lower adoption rates Etc. Etc. I'd like to at least see a realistic plan with some implementable steps to move in that direction. Along better guidelines and enforcement around these kinds of things. Although admittedly both are tangential to the current problem and I have no issue with Josh's idea in the midterm. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@Joshbaumgartner: The numbers I gave were not meant as hard lower or upper limits on category size, just indications that might be workable. JopkeB (talk) 09:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Understood and I agree. Josh (talk) 22:41, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I absolutely agree with the suggestion of always keeping/ automatically adding some other category (by default, the parent one, in no better one is available) besides date categories. COM:OVERCAT has been misused and abused a lot here, unfortunately, either by lack of good sense either by some obsession with pigeonholing everything people see in a cat - and pushing files into data cats while removing the parent cat is only one of those situations. Darwin Ahoy! 17:50, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I remember complaining about it years ago at Commons:Village_pump/Archive/2013/10#Category_madness_in_Hong_Kong, but there didn't seem to be much agreement that it was a problem. It's also a long-time obsession in the Australian categories, so you end up with the likes of Category:January 2012 at Launceston Airport. I ignore it. --ghouston (talk) 02:36, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
@Ghouston You were more visionary I guess. It is indeed a problem that isn't always apparent until it has grown into a real monster. Regardless, I've seen it really come to a head in a lot of different topics over the last year or two and while we can't go back to 2013 and fix it then, we can do something now. I've created Category:Chronological categories as a base and a corresponding CfD to get input over there, but it sounds like a lot of support for not allowing diffusion by date to remove the files from non-date topical categories. Josh (talk) 17:42, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

What to do in this case

While we continue to discuss broader issues, I'd like to get some consensus as to what should be done in this specific case. AnRo continues to create hyperspecific categories such as Category:Spring 1951 in Boston, many of which have very few files, and they have not responded here nor at their talk page since this discussion began. To my mind, this is now an administrative matter - disruptive editing and a refusal to communicate - that needs action. Pi.1415926535 (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I just noticed that they created Category:Forests in Saxony in autumn 2019 and several others despite your polite request that they stop while discussion is ongoing. I've also asked them to stop. Nosferattus (talk) 20:42, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
They should have at least held off until there was some agreement in the discussion about it. --Adamant1 (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This is just exacerbating the situation. There is some good discussion going on about how we can improve the system, but no matter what systemic changes we make, a disruptive effort by someone seemingly unwilling to participate in discussion is always going to be a problem. Unfortunately, some specific further action on that front might be needed. They don't even seem to be employing a consistent naming structure to these categories. Josh (talk) 22:59, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Geogroup icon

Manjiro5 recently requested an edit to {{Geogroup}} at Template talk:Geogroup#Icon proposal. They are proposing a new icon to be used by the template:

Current icon: in template ->
Proposed icon: in template ->

The comment in support of this proposal was: "I would like to replace it with this icon being more modern and slightly more accessible" by Manjiro5

As the template talk page is unlikely to get much traffic to comment on this, but the template is widely used, I am putting it out here on the VP for comment before we move forward with the edit request. Josh (talk) 17:33, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Would fit in the flat design trend of the recent years --PantheraLeo1359531 😺 (talk) 19:29, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
Np. Atlantic or Pacific, I don't mind. Enhancing999 (talk) 19:55, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
+3. Seems fine. --Adamant1 (talk) 00:28, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Photo challenge April results

Vertical lines: EntriesVotesScores
Rank 1 2 3
image
Title Колонны здания администрации и
думы Новгородской области 2H1A4397WI
Columns on the façade
of the Philharmonie
in Luxembourg
Fassade Mark-
Twain-
Grundschule 02
Author Kora27 Ermell ThoBel-0043
Score 25 14 11
Flames: EntriesVotesScores
Rank 1 2 3
image
Title Visitors at the 2024 Easter fire in Rottorf Campfire at lake Yngen,
Filipstad Municipality,
Värmland, Sweden
Osterfeuer im
oberen Murtal
Author F. Riedelio Mozzihh Bitisajn
Score 21 14 10

Congratulations to Kora27, Ermell, ThoBel-0043, F. Riedelio, Mozzihh and Bitisajn. -- Jarekt (talk) 00:50, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Special:UncategorizedCategories is back over 1000 categories. If you can add appropriate parent categories to any of the many that have otherwise reasonable content, that would be very helpful. If you're not a admin, don't worry about the empty ones, one or another admin will eventually find those and delete them. - Jmabel ! talk 06:05, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Now up to 1165 categories. I have the feeling almost no one is addressing this. I've done literally thousands, probably over 5000, and while I still try to do 50 or so per week, that is not enough to keep up. - Jmabel ! talk 17:53, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: I did a few today and about once a month a small portion.
 Question Is it a good idea to have the numbers next to the categories, like in other pages? Then you can see at a glance which are empty and not bother about them (for none admins like me) or to be able to remove them in quick succession (for admins). JopkeB (talk) 07:50, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
Wouldn't that be nice? As it is, in case you haven't noticed, you can hover over the link and see whether there are files in the category. - Jmabel ! talk 14:56, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
No I did not notice and I still do not see it. When I hover over a link, I see only the category name, for instance Category:Activité supplémentaire bibliothéquaire, but nothing else. JopkeB (talk) 07:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Weird that you get a different behavior than I do. So you don't get a thing like this in the popup?
Category:Queensferry Parish Church, South Queensferry ⋅ actions ⋅ popups
44 bytes, 0 wikiLinks, 0 images, 0 categories, 1 week 4 days old
----
Queensferry Parish Church, South Queensferry
Category members (5 shown)
File:Queensferry Parish Church 01.jpg, File:Queensferry Parish Church 02.jpg, File:Queensferry Parish Church 03.jpg, File:Queensferry Parish Church 04.jpg, File:South Queensferry Townscape , Queensferry Parish Church - geograph.org.uk - 3034870.jpg
Jmabel ! talk 18:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
No Jmabel, in the pop-up I only get the name of the category again, nothing else. Is it something in my preferences? JopkeB (talk) 04:01, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB: Yes, please search Special:Preferences#mw-prefsection-gadgets for "Popups".   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 05:30, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: Thanks! That was easy, and it works. JopkeB (talk) 14:46, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB: you really should thank Jeff G., who gave the useful answer! - Jmabel ! talk 19:21, 21 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: Sorry, indeed, my thanks are for you. JopkeB (talk) 04:08, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
@JopkeB: You're welcome.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 10:23, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

COM:CSCR in South Korea

Are there laws concerning a consent requirement in South Korea? 2001:4452:11E:F200:51E9:F25D:C71A:2504 05:46, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

COM:CCSR says, "Yes, with exceptions" but does not spell out those exceptions. - Jmabel ! talk 16:57, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Looking for category

Is there a category for photos that features both the subject and the photographer? --Trade (talk) 06:49, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Something like Category:Group selfies or Category:Selfies with celebrities? ReneeWrites (talk) 07:44, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
It's not exactly clear who actually belongs in the celebrity category. Same with the subcategories Trade (talk) 08:16, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

can I translate text of any image

i want to translate text of this image.and if I only upload PNG format. is it ok?
--KEmel49 (talk) 06:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Commons:SVG Translate tool and no, SVG is the preferred format for this as it is easily fixable and scalable. Sjoerd de Bruin (talk) 10:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The nice thing about this SVG is that the text is actually stored as text and not as image, lines or separate characters. Enhancing999 (talk) 16:49, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Sometimes links to existing pages lead to a Creating page, as if the page did not exist. Currently I have a case like that in Template:GDR propaganda navbar, namely the military link. It should lead to Category:GDR Propaganda; military. But when I click on it, I am told, that I can create the page. (Not sure what would happen if I do.) The other links also turn black, when they lead to the current page. This one does not. Can that be fixed? Watchduck (quack) 17:14, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

The "p" in "propaganda" is lower case in the template, as well as in all of the other categories in this naming scheme (cf. Special:Prefixindex/Category:GDR propaganda;). I'd recommend that you rename this category for consistency. Omphalographer (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Oops, thank you. This would be a great case for one of those Did you mean links. Watchduck (quack) 18:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Not too convinced that the chosen color scheme helps. Enhancing999 (talk) 17:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The colors fit the topic. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek. Watchduck (quack) 18:45, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
The color is reserved at WMF sites for a specific type of wikilink. Apparently here the color scheme even confused its creator. Enhancing999 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

MIDI file transcoding

Hi, I've uploaded some MIDI files of chords to Commons (e.g. File:3-4A set class on C.mid) which I need for en:List of set classes, and I gather that eventually Ogg and MP3 audio files are generated. How long do I have to wait? Or, is there some arcane incantation I need to perform that I've missed? Or do I need to add it to a queue somewhere? Is there some documentation somewhere that I can read about it if so? I have so far not found anything. — Jonathanischoice (talk) 22:06, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Who actually belongs in this category? Looking at the images placed here it looks completely random and quite frankly arbitrary. Most of the people located here are not even working in media Trade (talk) 08:42, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Personal opinion: It is limited value trash, though it is long existing trash that seems to have been accepted and have subsidiary categories.  — billinghurst sDrewth 12:33, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Depending on the definition every person who is notable for a own category on Commons could be in that category making it completely useless. GPSLeo (talk) 13:32, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
That's what I was thinking too. It strikes me as completely superfluous and arbitrary. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:11, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Images where the "[uploader] cannot .. subcategorize .. by profession or status" need to go somewhere. There or to Category:People. You will either have two piles or one pile. Enhancing999 (talk) 14:03, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
My preference is for Category:People. Looking at the setup of both categories it's where you can reasonably find what you're looking for. When I think celebrities I think actors, athletes, even influencers. All of those are categorized elsewhere. This is like having two sock drawers but one doesn't even have any socks. ReneeWrites (talk) 16:13, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

 Comment I think that it can be argued that the category should have no people listed directly as they would fall into a specific subsidiary category, and probably no images. If they are that much of a celebrity they get their own category which is linked to wikidata. If they are not that much of a celebrity, they are failing.  — billinghurst sDrewth 14:15, 22 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, I support deletion of this category, although it is useful as a honeypot to catch copyright violations and vanity images. Yann (talk) 16:19, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Useless at best. - Jmabel ! talk 17:24, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Totally agree. There's nothing in it that can't or shouldn't be put in more specific categories. --Adamant1 (talk) 22:22, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Or deleted. Unsurprisingly, there are tons of selfies and otherwise self-promotional images in this category. Omphalographer (talk) 23:59, 22 June 2024 (UTC)
Useless category. Support depopulating or deleting. Nosferattus (talk) 01:11, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
What about the 20+ subcategories? Trade (talk) 15:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Most of these have the same problem as the parent category. The only exceptions I see offhand are Category:An alphabet of celebrities (doesn't need this parent at all, though), Category:Magazines about celebrities, and (barely less problematic, but at least with a bit more of a clear definition) Category:Socialites. Category:Magazines about celebrities could be renamed as Category:Gossip magazines, matching en:Gossip magazine. - Jmabel ! talk 18:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Squares in Berlin

subcats in Category:Squares in Berlin are arranged in a strange way. different squares bearing the same name are put into a "cat:...platz (Berlin)". is this accepted practice for german squares? RZuo (talk) 20:27, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

more strangely Category:Streets in Berlin having the same name as another street in Berlin.
this strange way of creating a "street (Berlin)" has one bad effect. if i type "cat:Schillerpromenade", uploadwizard/hotcat will show me both Schillerpromenade (Berlin-Neukölln)‎ Schillerpromenade (Berlin-Oberschöneweide)‎ as well as Schillerpromenade (Berlin), which confused me (why is there a cat for berlin when there are also two more specific cats?). RZuo (talk) 20:31, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Is it the same street spreading across multiple parts of the city? Enhancing999 (talk) 12:09, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
No. --A.Savin 12:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
"having the same name as" is probably kind of a Berliner specialty, as Berlin is probably world's one of few (if not the only one) capital where certain street names are being used more than once.
The only practical usefulness of this scheme is (IMO), that it can be sorted in parental categories which refer to the name itself (such as Category:Schiller streets in Germany) as a whole, instead of putting each street category into it (usually with the result that some streets are in and some not). Regards --A.Savin 12:18, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Plenty of these in NYC (where numbered streets in Manhattan and Brooklyn are completely unrelated; I believe the ones in the Bronx do relate to the Manhattan grid). I suppose it's technically not a capital, but it's a bigger city than Berlin.
Seattle, where I live, is loaded with streets that are distinguished only by a directional, and may or may not be closely related. First Avenue S is a continuation of First Avenue, but First Avenue NW and First Avenue NE are not. Burke Ave N is basically a line on the map and refers to 7 unconnected streets that fall on that line; there is a Ravenna Ave NE (in two unconnected pieces), Ravenna Pl NE, and an (also discontinuous) NE Ravenna Boulevard (none of which intersect each other, and one of which -- Ravenna Ave NE -- is mostly not in the Ravenna neighborhood). There's a rather famous corner of Pike Place and Pike Street in the heart of Pike Place Market, but it's beaten for sheer confusion by the corner of Bellevue Avenue E, Bellevue Place E, and Bellevue Court E. - Jmabel ! talk 18:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel: Try the corner of Riverside, Riverside, and Riverside in upper Manhattan, NYC.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 14:47, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
About the typology of squares: Category:Church squares is usually about squares with a translation of "church" in the name. I'd stick to that At Category:Church squares in Basel it also includes one that isn't named that way. Berlin could probably use a Category:Squares in Berlin by name category. Enhancing999 (talk) 09:43, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

No sound for uploaded videos (mp4 files)

I've uploaded recently and noticed the mp4 versions don't have sound, but the webm versions do.

For example the files under 'Transcode status' here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:1.1_Introductions.webm under

I am using MacOS and Safari, and have tested in Chrome too. I also had a friend test on their Linux machine who confirmed the mp4 files had no sound when streamed or downloaded.

These were originally mp4 files, converted to webm using HandBrake before uploading. The originals play fine for me, but the mp4's on Commons seem to have lost their audio. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmyjrg (talk • contribs)

Commons does not allow MP4s. Please link to an MP4 you have uploaded. —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:27, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
It may be worth noting that on 19 June, @Jimmyjrg began uploading many video tutorials claiming "own work" and releasing as CC-BY 4.0, when indeed these are derivative works which depict live Wikipedia pages, including text, WMF logos, and images, some of which are in the Public Domain. The latter PD status clearly overrides any ownership, license claim, or Creative Commons licensing. I am concerned, but given their veteran status, perhaps Jimmyjrg can independently rectify the license status for these videos (I count 27 as of this writing). I am unsure of which templates/licenses are applicable, apart from {{Copyright by Wikimedia}}. Elizium23 (talk) 04:42, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@Elizium23: I'm not sure what you are saying here. I haven't looked at the videos. Insofar as the videos incorporate (without licensing) images that are not public domain the licenses need to be indicated, but a video can incorporate public domain content to whatever degree its creator wishes. That is the nature of public domain (although a few countries recognize "moral rights" independent of copyright that require giving credit for some public-domain content). Public-domain status is not "viral". I could make a video that consisted of juxtaposing a series of 100 public-domain images each shown for one second; my video would certainly be eligible for copyright, even though no one image in the video is copyrightable. In other words, to paraphrase but reverse you: PD status of images in a video does not override a copyright claim for the video as a whole. - Jmabel ! talk 05:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jmabel, you're correct, of course. I certainly did have that backwards. I've struck out the offending remark. But I stand by my claim that these videos are derivative, and incorporate plenty of content that belongs to the WMF and to other Wikipedians, and all content demands attribution by their applicable, existing CC licenses. Elizium23 (talk) 05:28, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Hi @Elizium23: thanks for bringing this to my attention. It looks like I have completely misunderstood how licensing works for instructional videos. I'll reach out the WMF team members I've been talking with about this project, and I'll amend the licenses asap. Jimmyjrg (talk) 00:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
@Koavf I uploaded webm videos, but on the Commons file under 'Transcode status' there are links to mp4 files to stream or download. These are the ones I have found have no sound. Jimmyjrg (talk) 23:56, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
looks like https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T358342 . RZuo (talk) 13:32, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks. It looks like the mp4 files aren't meant to have sound: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T368333 It's not at all clear to users, but apparently everything works as designed. Jimmyjrg (talk) 00:05, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Electrical equipment in the background

Can anyone say what is the equipment in the background here? I'd like to add further description and appropriate categories. - Jmabel ! talk 23:32, 24 June 2024 (UTC)

Step by Step switch
Looks like step by step switches used in a telephone switching network. Take a pair of telephone wires and connect them to any of 100 points (2 digits of a telephone number). One of my professors joked that it was invented by Herman B. Stepbystep. Strowger switch. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZePwin92cI Glrx (talk) 00:28, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
@Glrx: Yeah, that's a bit like what it looked to me as well, though you have a much more closely matching example. If it's correct, it raises a question of what two Seattle City Light employees were doing posing in front of telephony equipment, rather than equipment involved in the generation of transmission of electricity. But if we can be confident that is the case, I guess we don't have to solve the "why". - Jmabel ! talk 05:01, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Voting to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now open – cast your vote

You can find this message translated into additional languages on Meta-wiki. Please help translate to your language

Hello everyone,

The voting to ratify the Wikimedia Movement Charter is now open. The Wikimedia Movement Charter is a document to define roles and responsibilities for all the members and entities of the Wikimedia movement, including the creation of a new body – the Global Council – for movement governance.

The final version of the Wikimedia Movement Charter is available on Meta in different languages and attached here in PDF format for your reading.

Voting commenced on SecurePoll on June 25, 2024 at 00:01 UTC and will conclude on July 9, 2024 at 23:59 UTC. Please read more on the voter information and eligibility details.

After reading the Charter, please vote here and share this note further.

If you have any questions about the ratification vote, please contact the Charter Electoral Commission at cec@wikimedia.org.

On behalf of the CEC,

RamzyM (WMF) 10:51, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

Notification of DMCA takedown demand — President Joe Biden swearing in ceremony

In compliance with the provisions of the US Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA), and at the instruction of the Wikimedia Foundation's legal counsel, one or more files have been deleted from Commons. Please note that this is an official action of the Wikimedia Foundation office which should not be undone. If you have valid grounds for a counter-claim under the DMCA, please contact me.

The takedown can be read here.

Affected file(s):

To discuss this DMCA takedown, please go to COM:DMCA#President Joe Biden swearing in ceremony. Thank you! Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) 19:39, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

New changes to the "Depicts" step in UploadWizard available on Beta Commons

Hi all! I wanted to announce that on Beta Commons a new version of the "depicts" step of UploadWizard is available for testing.

A brief note about the changes:

  • basic "depicts" annotations (and other statements set up in campaigns) without qualifiers or references can now be added on the same page where the user is entering captions, locations, etc
  • the separate extra page for adding structured data is removed from UploadWizard
  • qualifiers and references can still be added on individual File pages as before (and that will take only one extra click)

The reason for us doing this is that we're hoping that by simplifying depicts annotations we'll make it easier to spot copyvios (and in particular FoP violations). The drawback from a user perspective that we already know of is mostly for users who might be uploading multiple images at once with non-depicts statements and/or qualifiers and references, and copying those from the first image to all other images in the upload. This functionality is no longer available - as far as we can tell it's not used much, but if there are people using it then we'd like to hear from those users who use it.

This new version will be available on Beta Commons until Monday afternoon. We're waiting for your feedback on it! --Sannita (WMF) (talk) 10:23, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

Two minor questions so far:
  1. Why does the Main subjects visible in this work (optional) label have a “pointer” cursor? Clicking it doesn’t seem to do anything (it doesn’t focus the input field).
  2. Why will this only be available until Monday afternoon?
Lucas Werkmeister (talk) 11:44, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
The "pointer" cursor is unintentional - raised a ticket for it https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T367976
It'll be available until Monday afternoon because we have to revert it by Monday evening, otherwise it automatically goes to production. If there's demand for more testing we can re-enable it on beta on Tuesday (until the following Monday) CParle (WMF) (talk) 14:09, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
I think this change has a lot of potential!
  1. Regarding adding more structured data with "one extra click", I think there should be a button for that on the last page of the wizard (next to each uploaded photo).
  2. Why do you call it "Main subjects visible in this work" when the values are used in a depicts statement? I think inconsistent terminology creates confusion.
  3. I think the created depicts statements could be automatically marked as prominent ("The most prominent subject(s) depicted in this work").
  4. Do you (or do you plan to) suggest categories based on the chosen Wikidata items?
It would be nice to read about the plans for this kind of changes. TuukkaH (talk) 14:32, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Glad you think it has potential @TuukkaH!
  1. There's a link to the File page for each image on the last page, and that's where you can click the "structured data" tab and add extra structured data. We actually talked on the team about adding another link directly to the structured data tab, but weren't convinced that the extra clutter on the page was worth it
  2. We're calling it "Main subjects visible in this work" because we weren't sure if new uploaders would understand "depicts" (we had a lot of discussion about the exact wording). Open to other suggestions if you have them
  3. I'm not sure this is really necessary, but if there's community demand for it we can certainly do it
  4. It's an interesting idea, but likely to be a lot of work to figure out how to do that (and it's not on our roadmap atm)
FYI the plans for all these kinds of changes are covered on the project page and the phab tickets linked from there CParle (WMF) (talk) 14:55, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
@Sannita (WMF) I tried to upload an image, but it doesn't appear (the file appears, but without the image itself). Is this expected? Darwin Ahoy! 17:30, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
Beta can be a bit flaky, but an upload worked for me right now. Worth trying again maybe? CParle (WMF) (talk) 14:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
@Sannita (WMF) I usually upload dozens of photos at once, and I used to upload them in batches so that it was very easy to put the "depicts" with the "apply to all" or "copy to all" function. If this is no longer available, and we'll have to pick depicts for every single file, I believe I'll stop adding them entirely. The extra field will be only additional, useless clutter, and I would frankly prefer if it wasn't there at all, or was hidden in another tab, as before. So, to me, in such a workflow, it's an unwanted change, and one for the worst. But I really don't get how do you think this change will help spotting copyvios, to start with. Darwin Ahoy! 17:37, 19 June 2024 (UTC)
@DarwIn you actually can still copy "depicts", just not other statements (or qualifiers/references)
Freedom of panorama copyvios are the most common reason for deletion requests on commons (see here https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T340546). What we're hoping is If someone uploads a picture of, for example, Burj Khalifa then they'll add depicts:Burj Khalifa, and we'll be able to spot the FoP violation automatically
Note that we don't propose to take any automatic action right now, but we're working towards better automatic detection of files that are likely to get deleted CParle (WMF) (talk) 13:58, 20 June 2024 (UTC)
@Sannita (WMF): I tested out the changes and it seems like an improvement. Two tangential issues though:
  1. Why is UploadWizard only setting the depicts statement? Why not also set inception, media type, and copyright status? You can get those for free from the existing fields.
  2. Phabricator bug T261764 makes using the depicts interface error-prone and confusing, especially for newbies. Is there any chance that the Wikidata folks could help fix that?
Nosferattus (talk) 02:12, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@Nosferattus Hi, thanks for your messages. Sorry it took me so long to answer, but I was caught in other urgent stuff, my bad.
  1. We're working on adding inception (phab:T362328) and coordinates of the point of view (phab:T368381) to the properties that users can add, it's going to need some time but it will be done. Other properties are already added automatically via bot, so they could be added, but since this is already taken care of by a bot we're not considering them a priority -- that is, unless there is consensus from the community to make them available.
  2. I don't know, I'll try to contact them and ask them about it, but I can't promise you anything about this. I know for a fact that scientific articles will be split from the main graph when doing queries, but I don't know if this will affect Structured Data too.
Sannita (WMF) (talk) 16:38, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
Thanks for the update! I'm glad you will be setting inception automatically soon! Nosferattus (talk) 17:32, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Is there something like TinEye or Google Image Reverse Search for Wikimedia Commons?

Does Wikimedia Commons have a function where I can input image files and search if any similar-looking images have been uploaded on Commons? --MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 02:24, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

@MaplesyrupSushi: Duplicate search is built in, see the bottom of the file description page or error messages upon upload.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 02:43, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't see a duplicate search button there, is enabling a gadget needed for that? I just have a firefox addon by which one can right click to reverse image search. However, the proper approach to this would be, as suggested earlier, create a script/bot that scans through all the WMC files to find likely copyvios and e.g. put them all in a category for them to be reviewed rather than a huge time-sink of reverse searching individual images manually. Prototyperspective (talk) 09:11, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
Any reason not to just use Google Image itself and look for images on Commons?
It might help if you said what is the issue you are trying to solve for which you want this tool. There may be a way to solve it other than the specific way you are suggesting. - Jmabel ! talk 18:17, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
OptimusPrimeBot by @Don-vip: adds Template:Duplicate to files listed on Special:ListDuplicatedFiles. Afaik the limitation on how many it adds is that it tries to keep backlog in the category:Duplicate short so the task doesn't feel overwhelming (ie. it doesn't flood it). Don-vip also have his own perceptual hash index of Wikimedia Commons files which is used for checking if photo already exits in Wikimedia Commons when uploading. --Zache (talk) 12:23, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
If I understood you correctly, that is only about duplicate files within Commons but I was saying there needs to be a Tineye/GoogleImage reverse search bot that identifies files that are likely copyvios needing manual review.
Also I don't know why Jmabel replied beneath my comment because he seems to to address Maplesyrup, not anything I wrote if I'm not mistaken. Prototyperspective (talk) 12:38, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
Ok, got it. -- Zache (talk) 12:49, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@Jeff G.: Where at the bottom of the file description page is this, can you post a screen shot or give a better description of it? Broichmore (talk) 19:31, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
@Broichmore: Please see the bottom of any page in Category:Duplicate or Special:ListDuplicatedFiles. For example, File:Abhandlung von den Zähnen (Pfaff) 219.jpg is a 1x1 white dot duplicated in 1,602 files for completeness.   — 🇺🇦Jeff G. please ping or talk to me🇺🇦 00:22, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
I see, thanks, the Category:Duplicate besides being a hidden cat, is put there by a human. So it doesn't help anyone on this thread.
Interestingly the very first such image I looked at, was wrongly catted, as a duplicate. This file is anything but a duplicate, I have reverted that edit. - Broichmore (talk) 10:33, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@MaplesyrupSushi: For the kind of artwork, you’re doing, its essential to attribute the artist/s, the publisher, and the true originating owner museum (the true source of the image) that's step 1.
Next, it's search through commons, using different search terms, and variations on the artists name, till you have the category for the particular artist complete. Should you have missed an image it’s not a problem.
This is because 18th and 19th century Lithographs and engravings are all unique, even if they come from the same book and edition, they are different, that’s why provenance and ownership is important, they are different in terms of condition and hand painting, and they should not be overwritten by anything other than the exact same print, from the same book, in the same museum.
Ranjeet Singh and his bolster image discussions are proof of that.
Your problem is not really solved by using google and TinEye, very often the exact original title searched for using simple SQL syntax will uncover more of the same item, here and on the internet. As the images are unique, as described, the checksums differ to, they can be too difficult for even google to cope with.
Variations of the same print are something we want! Degraded duplicates of the same image are not.
I have to say that engravings from Victorian newspapers, and 18th and 19th century lithographs on commons are routinely uploaded regularly with scant regard for any of the above. If they were obviously modern images they would be deleted on sight.
As we discussed before, quality of the source of the image is critical, I can't think of a worse source than the Panjab Digital Library, and because most of the images are PD, there's a multitude of real honeys out there. Broichmore (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
@Broichmore - This is very helpful info, thank you very much for the advice/guidance! MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 22:37, 23 June 2024 (UTC)
@MaplesyrupSushi I forgot to mention two concepts to you, that enable search in commons.
Firstly, all these files (we have of paintings, engravings, historical photos) need the Artwork template. The essential fields to fill in, are: the artist, the title (as given by the publisher or artist), the date (of publication, creation, in the description field all of the available captions or at least the relevant keywords from it, the institution owner. Nice to have's are the medium, and dimensions.
Finally, secondly, the museums Accession number, (for the British Library that's the shelfmark number). Any other given numbers can just go into the description field.
This last item the Accession number is critical, because commons has bots, that occasionally scrape museum sites, and it looks for that number, if the bot cant find it, it will upload a duplicate. The minimum cats are the artist, and engraver (or publisher if not available). Nice to have's are the museum source collection, and the most pertinent descriptive cat.
Sikh images and Indo, Pakistani original art can be a problem, for these images you can only fill out what you know, but I think you'll find that on finding an image, you will find variants elsewhere that will provide the bits and pieces you need. Be aware that some sites strip this information out, they are in the business of selling prints for decorative purposes, academia means nothing to them, they don't pay out against copyright claims unless challenged. Their defence being that to the best of their knowledge the items are PD, something which they don’t highlight on their sites.
It goes without saying that licencing is essential for uploading, for your stuff that will come with PD USA. The uploader is not the author, the license is always an art one.
Hope this helps. - Broichmore (talk) 11:55, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
I have been working with indexing commons photos images using imagehashes. Current status is that I have 70% of jpg/png/webp/tiff images indexed and there is REST api for querying hashes. However, currently there is no web interface for querying commons images by files or urls as my focus has been on indexing and publishing the database and not yet in the web UI. (see proposal, github). In any case if you have immediate need I could add minimal web form interface for querying commons images using files/urls to toolforge if there is need for that. --Zache (talk) 12:16, 24 June 2024 (UTC)
@MaplesyrupSushi I wrote a minimal web ui for Imagehash.toolforge.org (example queries: 1, 2, 3) It also allows to upload files but that is little bit slow. Another caveat is that it works better with larger files (ie. over 800x800px than with very small thumbnails.--Zache (talk) 08:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
@Zache - Thanks a lot! I’ll give it a try. MaplesyrupSushi (talk) 11:07, 26 June 2024 (UTC)

Unable to use CropTool

I'm unable to use CropTool at File:1983. Febrero, 22. Recibimiento del cardenal José Alí Lebrún.jpg. When clicking directly from the toolbar, I'm directed to CropTool's main page, being asked to enter the file's URL or name, after which I'm confirmed that the file exists but I'm not able to crop it. The tool works perfectly in any other file I have found.

Is it possible this is because its license needs to be reviewed first? Many thanks in advance, --NoonIcarus (talk) 00:30, 25 June 2024 (UTC)

That appears to be the case. I'm unable to crop any of the files in Category:License review needed. ReneeWrites (talk) 17:46, 25 June 2024 (UTC)
@NoonIcarus and ReneeWrites: That looks to be the case. I have reviewed the image now, so feel free to give it another go.  — billinghurst sDrewth 11:35, 26 June 2024 (UTC)
@Billinghurst: I was able to crop the image now, thank you! --NoonIcarus (talk) 17:29, 26 June 2024 (UTC)